Discussion:
OT: Mortgage industry bail-out
(too old to reply)
a***@uymail.com
2008-09-09 07:25:04 UTC
Permalink
It's amazing! The government is bailing out the screwed up mortgage
companies, including Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, with massive funds
from tax payers, and it seems the financial sectors are gloating. The
market's up and mortgage rates are dropping.

Isn't there any accountability for fraud and irresponsibility any
more? There's no talk of serious regulation changes or modification
of business practices. So, it's business as usual at the ultimate
expense of the tax payer. Wish I could run a business without regard
to finances, and have a bottomless source of funds to bail the
business out when it goes bankrupt, while paying myself a humongous
salary.

What a shell game!
d***@aol.com
2008-09-09 08:30:15 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 9, 12:25�am, ***@uymail.com wrote:
> It's amazing! �The government is bailing out the screwed up mortgage
> companies, including Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, with massive funds
> from tax payers, and it seems the financial sectors are gloating. �The
> market's up and mortgage rates are dropping.
>
> Isn't there any accountability for fraud and irresponsibility any
> more? �There's no talk of serious regulation changes or modification
> of business practices. �So, it's business as usual at the ultimate
> expense of the tax payer. �Wish I could run a business without regard
> to finances, and have a bottomless source of funds to bail the
> business out when it goes bankrupt, while paying myself a humongous
> salary.
>
> What a shell game!

Reminds me of folksinger Tom Paxton's song about another bailout, "I
Am Changing My Name To Chrysler:

Since the first amphibian crawled out of the slime,
We've been struggling in an unrelenting climb.
We were hardly up and walking
Before money started talking,
And it's said that failure is an awful crime.
It's been that way a millenium or two;
Now it seems there is a different point of view.
If you're a corporate Titanic
And your failure is gigantic,
Down in Congress there's a safety net for you.

I am changing my name to Chrysler,
I am going down to Washington D.C.
I will tell some power broker,
"What you did for Iacocca
Would be perfectly acceptable to me."
I am changing my name to Chrysler,
I am leaving for that great receiving line.
When they hand a million grand out,
I'll be standing with my hand out,
Yes sir, I'll get mine.

David Koppelman
Icono Clast
2008-09-09 11:41:54 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 9, 12:25 am, ***@uymail.com wrote:
> It's amazing!

No. It's Socialism for the rich.

I was heavily invested in one of the companies that went broke last
year. I'll get a few pennies from the bankruptcy court but not much
else.

Although the amount lost exceeds a year's wages at my final job,
because the money was "over there" the impact is only intellectual,
not emotional.

The stock still trades but it's in the "penny" category and quite
volatile.

> What a shell game!

Don't forget the three-hundred-fifty million we're still paying for
the savings and loan debacle during the Reagan Administration. When
its new S&L legislation was passed, pundits marveled at what could be
done and were not the least bit surprised when it was done.
a***@uymail.com
2008-09-09 12:16:30 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 9, 7:41 am, Icono Clast <***@jps.net> wrote:
> On Sep 9, 12:25 am, ***@uymail.com wrote:

> Don't forget the three-hundred-fifty million we're still paying for
> the savings and loan debacle during the Reagan Administration. When
> its new S&L legislation was passed, pundits marveled at what could be
> done and were not the least bit surprised when it was done.

I think you mean billion, not million. The S&L mess was
considered incredible, but still only affected a relatively
small percentage of bank customers. The current mess
is far more pervasive, by my estimates.
a***@uymail.com
2008-09-09 12:32:00 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 9, 8:16 am, ***@uymail.com wrote:

> small percentage of bank customers. The current mess
> is far more pervasive, by my estimates.

A significant part of the problem is this chase for
"bigness," which creates a lot of conflicts of
interests, hidden in products, services, and
"business costs" which can't be discerned by
analysts, examiners, and regulators. The lack
of useful regulations also helped make shady
businesses (such as exorbitant fees) the norm
rather than exception.

Anyone who has a mutual fund is complicit in
the mess, since he/she ends up unwittingly
funding some part of the corruption.
a***@uymail.com
2008-09-10 20:24:10 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 9, 8:32 am, ***@uymail.com wrote:
> On Sep 9, 8:16 am, ***@uymail.com wrote:

>
> Anyone who has a mutual fund is complicit in
> the mess, since he/she ends up unwittingly
> funding some part of the corruption.

It's amazing how long it takes some "experts" to figure out
the obvious...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080910/ap_on_go_co/oil_speculation

And amazing how the "experts" we pay with tax dollars
to protect us can't even figure out the obvious.
a***@uymail.com
2008-09-10 20:31:47 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 10, 4:24 pm, ***@uymail.com wrote:

> And amazing how the "experts" we pay with tax dollars
> to protect us can't even figure out the obvious.

Well, this may not be true, since these "experts" may
very likely have been influenced to look the other way.
After all, a lot of people are laughing all the way to
the bank.
memiki
2008-09-11 11:19:03 UTC
Permalink
Re Fannie and Freddie FWIW -- I would like to share what a Senior V.P.
of a major brokerage told me ......the Government had no choice but to
act as they did.......many big investors from the Middle East, China,
Japan, Etc. were heavily invested in Freddie and Fannie and were
becoming increasingly uneasy.....Government action prevented these
investors from pulling out their money all at once......this would
have been disasterous. Again.....FWIW.....

Miki
Ed Jay
2008-09-11 17:48:29 UTC
Permalink
memiki scribed:
>
>Re Fannie and Freddie FWIW -- I would like to share what a Senior V.P.
>of a major brokerage told me ......the Government had no choice but to
>act as they did.......many big investors from the Middle East, China,
>Japan, Etc. were heavily invested in Freddie and Fannie and were
>becoming increasingly uneasy.....Government action prevented these
>investors from pulling out their money all at once......this would
>have been disasterous. Again.....FWIW.....
>
Chapter 11 would have prevented any pullout without the government screwing
taxpayers for the sake of these giant corporations.

--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)

Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
Knowing the facts could save your life.
http://www.breastthermography.info
d***@aol.com
2008-09-11 19:02:13 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 11, 4:19�am, memiki <***@aol.com> wrote:
> Re Fannie and Freddie FWIW -- I would like to share what a Senior V.P.
> of a major brokerage told me ......the Government had no choice but to
> act as they did.......many big investors from the Middle East, China,
> Japan, Etc. were heavily invested in Freddie and Fannie and were
> becoming increasingly uneasy.....Government action prevented these
> investors from pulling out their money all at once......this would
> have been disasterous. Again.....FWIW.....
>
> Miki

If true, isn't this an admission of the necessity of government
intervention in the marketplace?

Or as Tom Paxton was pointing out in the song I quoted, is government
intervention only desireable when big investors are involved, but not
poor folks?

What is the principled difference between this bailout and AFDC/Food
stamps? Is "Aid to Families With Dependent Children" bad, but aid to
big investors good?

I'm not questioning what your friend told you, Miki. I'm pointing out
the inconsistencies in what some people say they believe concerning
the proper role of government. Any banker who favors this bailout for
the reasons mentioned, who turns up his nose and sneers at government
programs designed to help the average citizen, is a hypocrite of the
worst order.

David Koppelman
memiki
2008-09-11 20:02:05 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 11, 12:02 pm, ***@aol.com wrote:
> On Sep 11, 4:19 am, memiki <***@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > Re Fannie and Freddie FWIW -- I would like to share what a Senior V.P.
> > of a major brokerage told me ......the Government had no choice but to
> > act as they did.......many big investors from the Middle East, China,
> > Japan, Etc. were heavily invested in Freddie and Fannie and were
> > becoming increasingly uneasy.....Government action prevented these
> > investors from pulling out their money all at once......this would
> > have been disasterous. Again.....FWIW.....
>
> > Miki
>
> If true, isn't this an admission of the necessity of government
> intervention in the marketplace?
>
> Or as Tom Paxton was pointing out in the song I quoted, is government
> intervention only desireable when big investors are involved, but not
> poor folks?
>
> What is the principled difference between this bailout and AFDC/Food
> stamps?  Is "Aid to Families With Dependent Children" bad, but aid to
> big investors good?
>
> I'm not questioning what your friend told you, Miki.  I'm pointing out
> the inconsistencies in what some people say they believe concerning
> the proper role of government.  Any banker who favors this bailout for
> the reasons mentioned, who turns up his nose and sneers at government
> programs designed to help the average citizen, is a hypocrite of the
> worst order.
>
> David Koppelman

Ed and David -- I posted just to give information. I do not pretend to
know much about this subject or the financial world. I leave all that
to my financial team and you guys.... :)

Miki

Miki
Ed Jay
2008-09-11 22:23:30 UTC
Permalink
memiki scribed:

>On Sep 11, 12:02 pm, ***@aol.com wrote:
>> On Sep 11, 4:19 am, memiki <***@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Re Fannie and Freddie FWIW -- I would like to share what a Senior V.P.
>> > of a major brokerage told me ......the Government had no choice but to
>> > act as they did.......many big investors from the Middle East, China,
>> > Japan, Etc. were heavily invested in Freddie and Fannie and were
>> > becoming increasingly uneasy.....Government action prevented these
>> > investors from pulling out their money all at once......this would
>> > have been disasterous. Again.....FWIW.....
>>
>> > Miki
>>
>> If true, isn't this an admission of the necessity of government
>> intervention in the marketplace?
>>
>> Or as Tom Paxton was pointing out in the song I quoted, is government
>> intervention only desireable when big investors are involved, but not
>> poor folks?
>>
>> What is the principled difference between this bailout and AFDC/Food
>> stamps?  Is "Aid to Families With Dependent Children" bad, but aid to
>> big investors good?
>>
>> I'm not questioning what your friend told you, Miki.  I'm pointing out
>> the inconsistencies in what some people say they believe concerning
>> the proper role of government.  Any banker who favors this bailout for
>> the reasons mentioned, who turns up his nose and sneers at government
>> programs designed to help the average citizen, is a hypocrite of the
>> worst order.
>>
>Ed and David -- I posted just to give information. I do not pretend to
>know much about this subject or the financial world. I leave all that
>to my financial team and you guys.... :)
>
Here's a variation on the theme your friend suggested. The US bailed out
Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac not so much to keep foreign money from pulling
out, but to maintain the illusion that both companies are stable and credit
worthy, so China et al would continue to buy US debt instruments.
<http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/JI10Dj03.html>

--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)

Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
Knowing the facts could save your life.
http://www.breastthermography.info
memiki
2008-09-12 07:08:15 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 11, 3:23 pm, Ed Jay <***@aes-intl.com> wrote:
> memiki scribed:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Sep 11, 12:02 pm, ***@aol.com wrote:
> >> On Sep 11, 4:19 am, memiki <***@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >> > Re Fannie and Freddie FWIW -- I would like to share what a Senior V.P.
> >> > of a major brokerage told me ......the Government had no choice but to
> >> > act as they did.......many big investors from the Middle East, China,
> >> > Japan, Etc. were heavily invested in Freddie and Fannie and were
> >> > becoming increasingly uneasy.....Government action prevented these
> >> > investors from pulling out their money all at once......this would
> >> > have been disasterous. Again.....FWIW.....
>
> >> > Miki
>
> >> If true, isn't this an admission of the necessity of government
> >> intervention in the marketplace?
>
> >> Or as Tom Paxton was pointing out in the song I quoted, is government
> >> intervention only desireable when big investors are involved, but not
> >> poor folks?
>
> >> What is the principled difference between this bailout and AFDC/Food
> >> stamps?  Is "Aid to Families With Dependent Children" bad, but aid to
> >> big investors good?
>
> >> I'm not questioning what your friend told you, Miki.  I'm pointing out
> >> the inconsistencies in what some people say they believe concerning
> >> the proper role of government.  Any banker who favors this bailout for
> >> the reasons mentioned, who turns up his nose and sneers at government
> >> programs designed to help the average citizen, is a hypocrite of the
> >> worst order.
>
> >Ed and David -- I posted just to give information. I do not pretend to
> >know much about this subject or the financial world. I leave all that
> >to my financial team and you guys.... :)
>
> Here's a variation on the theme your friend suggested. The US bailed out
> Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac not so much to keep foreign money from pulling
> out, but to maintain the illusion that both companies are stable and credit
> worthy, so China et al would continue to buy US debt instruments.
> <http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/JI10Dj03.html>
>
> --
> Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)
>
> Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
> Knowing the facts could save your life.http://www.breastthermography.info- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Yes, that is another variation of the theme my financial advisor
discussed with me......actually it sounds like both themes are on
parallel tracks arriving at the same destination.....methinks?

Miki
Ed Jay
2008-09-12 17:28:38 UTC
Permalink
memiki scribed:

>On Sep 11, 3:23 pm, Ed Jay <***@aes-intl.com> wrote:
>> memiki scribed:
>>
>> >> > Re Fannie and Freddie FWIW -- I would like to share what a Senior V.P.
>> >> > of a major brokerage told me ......the Government had no choice but to
>> >> > act as they did.......many big investors from the Middle East, China,
>> >> > Japan, Etc. were heavily invested in Freddie and Fannie and were
>> >> > becoming increasingly uneasy.....Government action prevented these
>> >> > investors from pulling out their money all at once......this would
>> >> > have been disasterous. Again.....FWIW.....
>>
>> Here's a variation on the theme your friend suggested. The US bailed out
>> Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac not so much to keep foreign money from pulling
>> out, but to maintain the illusion that both companies are stable and credit
>> worthy, so China et al would continue to buy US debt instruments.
>> <http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/JI10Dj03.html>
>>
>Yes, that is another variation of the theme my financial advisor
>discussed with me......actually it sounds like both themes are on
>parallel tracks arriving at the same destination.....methinks?
>
Just think...the government bails out the giant mortgage companies so that
China will continue to buy Treasury Bonds, so the USA will have more money
to pay for the war on Iraq. Lovely, eh?

--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)

Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
Knowing the facts could save your life.
http://www.breastthermography.info
Ed Jay
2008-09-14 14:56:18 UTC
Permalink
>>> >> > Re Fannie and Freddie

I asked an associate with Japan's Ministry of Finance what he thought of the
US government bailing out Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, His answer:

"Washington did not bail out these government sponsored enterprises. They
just nationalized them according to a good old totalitarian communist
tradition. It is a case of international collusion including, Bush, Custer,
Afghan, Iraqui, Israel, China, Fukuda and Koizumi."

--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)

Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
Knowing the facts could save your life.
http://www.breastthermography.info
a***@uymail.com
2008-09-15 05:06:59 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 14, 10:56 am, Ed Jay <***@aes-intl.com> wrote:
> >>> >> > Re Fannie and Freddie
>
> I asked an associate with Japan's Ministry of Finance what he thought of the
> US government bailing out Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, His answer:
>
> "Washington did not bail out these government sponsored enterprises. They
> just nationalized them according to a good old totalitarian communist
> tradition. It is a case of international collusion including, Bush, Custer,
> Afghan, Iraqui, Israel, China, Fukuda and Koizumi."

More good news... not...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/financial_meltdown
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/column_stocks_outlook_dc

The terrorists may have destroyed (the headquarters) of JP Morgan
on 9-11, but seven years later Americans have only ourselves to
blame for the melt-down that's happening, for allowing businesses
and the government to run amok and not demanding accountability.
On the bright side, perhaps the masses will wake up, but given
the easy way human beings are manipulated, I wouldn't hold my
breath.
a***@uymail.com
2008-09-17 03:45:46 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 14, 10:56 am, Ed Jay <***@aes-intl.com> wrote:

> "Washington did not bail out these government sponsored enterprises. They
> just nationalized them according to a good old totalitarian communist
> tradition. It is a case of international collusion including, Bush, Custer,
> Afghan, Iraqui, Israel, China, Fukuda and Koizumi."

Looks like the feds are nationalizing AIG, the largest insurance
company in the states (world?), taking an 80% stake for
$85 billion.

Now Venezuela's Chavez can laugh at the capitalists for doing
the same thing he's been doing (while driving his country down
the tubes).
Ed Jay
2008-09-11 20:08:09 UTC
Permalink
***@aol.com scribed:

>On Sep 11, 4:19?am, memiki <***@aol.com> wrote:
>> Re Fannie and Freddie FWIW -- I would like to share what a Senior V.P.
>> of a major brokerage told me ......the Government had no choice but to
>> act as they did.......many big investors from the Middle East, China,
>> Japan, Etc. were heavily invested in Freddie and Fannie and were
>> becoming increasingly uneasy.....Government action prevented these
>> investors from pulling out their money all at once......this would
>> have been disasterous. Again.....FWIW.....
>>
>If true, isn't this an admission of the necessity of government
>intervention in the marketplace?

You needed more proof?
>
>Or as Tom Paxton was pointing out in the song I quoted, is government
>intervention only desireable when big investors are involved, but not
>poor folks?
>
>What is the principled difference between this bailout and AFDC/Food
>stamps? Is "Aid to Families With Dependent Children" bad, but aid to
>big investors good?

You must understand that this is how the government is helping the poor
people who are losing their homes to foreclosure.
>
>I'm not questioning what your friend told you, Miki. I'm pointing out
>the inconsistencies in what some people say they believe concerning
>the proper role of government. Any banker who favors this bailout for
>the reasons mentioned, who turns up his nose and sneers at government
>programs designed to help the average citizen, is a hypocrite of the
>worst order.
>
Are you surprised?

Ed Jay

"Remember before the Republicans took over when mandate
meant something other than a visit to the men's room?"
a***@uymail.com
2008-09-11 21:23:48 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 11, 3:02 pm, ***@aol.com wrote:

> What is the principled difference between this bailout and AFDC/Food
> stamps? Is "Aid to Families With Dependent Children" bad, but aid to
> big investors good?

About $250 billion? What is good or bad is a juggling act that
constantly needs to be balanced. We all know how far out of
balance the pendulum has swung.

> I'm not questioning what your friend told you, Miki. I'm pointing out
> the inconsistencies in what some people say they believe concerning
> the proper role of government. Any banker who favors this bailout for
> the reasons mentioned, who turns up his nose and sneers at government
> programs designed to help the average citizen, is a hypocrite of the
> worst order.

The role of government is to establish equitability amongst its
citizens, to minimize social discontent and promote stability.
Americans would like to believe that freedom and pursuit of
happiness are part of the deal, but unfortunately the pursuit
of a small minority has annihilated that of the ambivalent
majority. The only way to tilt the balance back is via laws
and reformed policies.

It's pathetic how in such time of turmoil, the political leaders
quibble like children and the media fuels the irrelevant flames,
incessantly talking about lipstick.
John Wheaton
2008-09-11 21:34:15 UTC
Permalink
<***@uymail.com> wrote in message
news:c9cdebb3-ee22-42fa-8e00-***@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> The only way to tilt the balance back is via laws
> and reformed policies.
>

There used to be something in place to prevent the
Wallstreet/Credit/Mortgage situation that we now have. Here is a bit of info
on it
http://www.researchstock.com/cgi-bin/rview.cgi?c=commenta&rsrc=RC-20031117-F
Ed Jay
2008-09-11 22:09:52 UTC
Permalink
John Wheaton scribed:

>
><***@uymail.com> wrote in message
>news:c9cdebb3-ee22-42fa-8e00-***@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>> The only way to tilt the balance back is via laws
>> and reformed policies.
>>
>
>There used to be something in place to prevent the
>Wallstreet/Credit/Mortgage situation that we now have. Here is a bit of info
>on it
>http://www.researchstock.com/cgi-bin/rview.cgi?c=commenta&rsrc=RC-20031117-F
>
Interesting essay, and I'm sure it has some merit; however, IMO, the current
housing problem is the result of (1) Bill Clinton's HUD allowing Fannie May
and Freddie Mac to make loans to low-income borrowers who did not qualify
for conventional loans, and (2) George Bush encouraging lenders to employ
predatory lending practices by making it known policy to not prosecute
violators of the Predatory Lending Act. With carloads of money available to
lend, banks and mortgage companies solicited anyone and everyone. Wall
Street got caught up in the fracas when it became heavily vested in mortgage
backed securities.

--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)

Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
Knowing the facts could save your life.
http://www.breastthermography.info
John Wheaton
2008-09-17 07:34:00 UTC
Permalink
<***@uymail.com> wrote in message
news:c9cdebb3-ee22-42fa-8e00-***@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> The role of government is to establish equitability amongst its
> citizens, to minimize social discontent and promote stability.
> Americans would like to believe that freedom and pursuit of
> happiness are part of the deal, but unfortunately the pursuit
> of a small minority has annihilated that of the ambivalent
> majority. The only way to tilt the balance back is via laws
> and reformed policies.
>

It was a "reform" policy that helped create the current problem.

"Many politicians and pundits claim that the credit crunch and high mortgage
foreclosure rate is an example of market failure and want government to step
in to bail out creditors and borrowers at the expense of taxpayers who
prudently managed their affairs. These financial problems are not market
failures but government failure. The Community Reinvestment Act of 1977 is a
federal law that intimidated lenders into offering credit throughout their
entire market and discouraged them from restricting their credit services to
low-risk markets, a practice sometimes called redlining. The Federal Reserve
Bank, keeping interest rates artificially low, gave buyers and builders
incentive to buy and build, thereby producing the housing bubble. Lenders
were willing to make creative interest-only loans, often high-risk "no doc"
and "liar loans," in order to allow people to buy more housing than they
could afford. Of course, with the expectation that housing prices will
continue to rise, it was no problem for lenders and borrowers but housing
prices began to fall, leaving some people with negative home equity and
banks in trouble.
The credit crunch and foreclosure problems are failures of government
policy. In fact, what we see now is a market correction to foolhardy
government policy. Congress' move to bailout lenders and borrowers who made
poor decisions will simply create incentives for people to make unwise
decisions in the future. English philosopher Herbert Spencer said, "The
ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the
world with fools."

http://townhall.com/Common/PrintPage.aspx?g=96c1ee4d-6fe7-4970-be14-28d30ab1f73e&t=c
a***@uymail.com
2008-09-17 09:44:22 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 17, 3:34 am, "John Wheaton" <***@comcast.net> wrote:

> It was a "reform" policy that helped create the current problem.

I very much agree. But, the problem lies in the fact
that the regulatory agencies and lawmakers have been
asleep at the helm since the laws took effect. The FDA,
NTSB, CDC, and even FEMA have far better response
times and accountability than the SEC and Feds. The
FDA had to go to work on a handful of deaths and a
thousand illnesses resulting from Salmonella, but the
SEC/Feds sat on financial time-bombs where hundreds
of millions are affected. The average Joe could tell that
the corrupt practices of financial institutions would explode
one day, but the Feds not only put on blinders, but fueled
the impending disaster, by artificially depressing interest
rates, etc.. Whenever some reforms take place, progress
must be monitored and the rules/laws adjusted accordingly.
Especially when people figure out the system and start
taking advantage of loopholes.

Because these bail-outs are becoming common-place, the
government and taxpayers have a right to demand that
large corporations observe "reasonable" practices. These
ridiculous executive compensations and obsessions with
quarterly profits rather than long-term business/industry
health are major causes of eventual corruption and
failures. Does any reasonable citizen believe that credit
card interests should reach 30%, that credit cards with
high limits be issued to teens, that banks can jack up fees
arbitrarily, etc.? These are all manifestations of the
predatory practices that have become business-as-usual,
the rule rather than the exception.
John Wheaton
2008-09-17 07:39:30 UTC
Permalink
<***@uymail.com> wrote in message
news:c9cdebb3-ee22-42fa-8e00-***@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> The role of government is to establish equitability amongst its
> citizens, to minimize social discontent and promote stability.
> Americans would like to believe that freedom and pursuit of
> happiness are part of the deal, but unfortunately the pursuit
> of a small minority has annihilated that of the ambivalent
> majority. The only way to tilt the balance back is via laws
> and reformed policies.
>

Another story about how Government reform policies created the current
ecnomic mess.

"In 1977, Carter, along with a Democrat Congress, created a worthy project
with noble intentions - the Community Reinvestment Act. Over strong industry
objections, it mandated that all banks meet the credit needs of their entire
communities.
In 1995, President Clinton imposed even stronger regulations and performance
tests that coerced banks to substantially increase loans to low-income,
poverty-area borrowers or face fines or possible restrictions on expansion.
These revisions allowed for securitization of CRA loans containing subprime
mortgages.

By 1997, good loans were bundled with poor ones and sold as prime packages
to institutions here and abroad. That shifted risk from the loan
originators, freeing banks to begin pyramiding and make more of these
profitable subprime products.

Under two young, well-intended presidents, therefore, big-government plans
and mandates played a significant role in the current subprime mortgage mess
and its catastrophic consequences for the U.S. and international economies.

Hardest-hit by the mortgage foreclosures have been the citizens that
Democrats always claim to help most - inner-city residents who fell victim
to low or no down payment schemes, unexpected adjustable rates, deceptive
loan applications and commission-hungry salespeople.

Now we're having to bail out at huge cost Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the
very agencies that were supposed to stabilize the system. In time, this
should improve the situation. But the party of Carter and Clinton that
midwifed our mortgage mess now wants to be trusted to take over and have the
government run our entire system of health care!"
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=305938528597493
a***@uymail.com
2008-09-17 10:16:34 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 17, 3:39 am, "John Wheaton" <***@comcast.net> wrote:

> Hardest-hit by the mortgage foreclosures have been the citizens that
> Democrats always claim to help most - inner-city residents who fell victim
> to low or no down payment schemes, unexpected adjustable rates, deceptive
> loan applications and commission-hungry salespeople.
>
> Now we're having to bail out at huge cost Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the
> very agencies that were supposed to stabilize the system. In time, this
> should improve the situation. But the party of Carter and Clinton that
> midwifed our mortgage mess now wants to be trusted to take over and have the
> government run our entire system of health care!

It's not Republicans or Democrats. It's the system and the
endemically corrupt nature of politics. While the Democrats
may have started some well-intentioned reforms, the
succeeding administrations and lawmakers needed to ensure
that the spirit of the laws remain and that they even still make
sense. The original lawmakers certainly can't be faulted for
unforeseeable consequences (within reason) decades later,
or the corruptions that ultimately result from people who figure
out the system and take advantage of loopholes (which is
inevitable).

The idea of universal health care is scary, because no one
talks about accountability and ability to pay. Is it fair for
an irresponsible guy who has no job but fathers 10 kids to
demand health care for the kids, while some responsible
guy who chooses to have no or few kids has to subsidize
the children of the irresponsible one? It's not the "fault"
of the kids, but it is an issue of social equity.

OTOH, aren't most folks glad they didn't privatize social
security, even partially, given the irresponsible and
corrupt Wild Wild West the financial corporations are
now exhibiting. The dot-com failures from 8+ years ago
should have been a bright red light about the corruption
and fraud that exists, but the regulators and lawmakers
did nothing. The economy ran on borrowed funds and
borrowed time.
Icono Clast
2008-09-13 10:37:38 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 11, 12:02 pm, ***@aol.com wrote:
> the inconsistencies in what some people say they believe concerning
> the proper role of government.  Any banker who favors this bailout for
> the reasons mentioned, who turns up his nose and sneers at government
> programs designed to help the average citizen, is a hypocrite of the
> worst order.

As I said: It's Socialism for the rich.
John Wheaton
2008-09-17 07:47:52 UTC
Permalink
<***@uymail.com> wrote in message
news:23fb77a3-2ba2-4ca7-a0f9-***@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com....
> After all, a lot of people are laughing all the way to
> the bank.
>

"Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac survived scrutiny by manipulating, cajoling, and
lobbying politicians and hiring board members who were politicos (e.g. Jamie
Gorelick) rather than mortgage gurus. They hired lobbyists, gave massive
donations, obtained nice tax breaks, and sailed below the regulatory radar
screen.

Of the 354 lawmakers who received money from Freddie and Fannie between 1989
and 2008, Sen. Chris Dodd received the most. But next was . . . drumroll . .
. Barack Obama."

"So it would appear that this is precisely what Obama has been railing
against: Washington insiders lining the pockets of other Washington insiders
while the taxpayers ultimately have to foot the bill. The Agent of Change,
it seems, didn't exactly walk the walk on this one."

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/rubin/30411
a***@uymail.com
2008-09-17 10:21:08 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 17, 3:47 am, "John Wheaton" <***@comcast.net> wrote:

> and 2008, Sen. Chris Dodd received the most. But next was . . . drumroll . .
> . Barack Obama."

I'm not optimistic about either candidate being capable of
producing much change, as the system is screwed up.
It's the same 'ole choosing between the lesser of two
"evils."

Partisan politics is not going to help the gridlock.
Ed Jay
2008-09-17 15:59:30 UTC
Permalink
John Wheaton scribed:

>
><***@uymail.com> wrote in message
>news:23fb77a3-2ba2-4ca7-a0f9-***@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com....
>> After all, a lot of people are laughing all the way to
>> the bank.
>>
>
>"Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac survived scrutiny by manipulating, cajoling, and
>lobbying politicians and hiring board members who were politicos (e.g. Jamie
>Gorelick) rather than mortgage gurus. They hired lobbyists, gave massive
>donations, obtained nice tax breaks, and sailed below the regulatory radar
>screen.
>
>Of the 354 lawmakers who received money from Freddie and Fannie between 1989
>and 2008, Sen. Chris Dodd received the most. But next was . . . drumroll . .
>. Barack Obama."
>
>"So it would appear that this is precisely what Obama has been railing
>against: Washington insiders lining the pockets of other Washington insiders
>while the taxpayers ultimately have to foot the bill. The Agent of Change,
>it seems, didn't exactly walk the walk on this one."
>
>http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/rubin/30411
>
Can you guess which of the current candidates was a staunch supporter of
deregulating the financial sector? Hint: John McCain.

--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)

Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
Knowing the facts could save your life.
http://www.breastthermography.info
Ed Jay
2008-09-17 16:31:30 UTC
Permalink
Ed Jay scribed:

>John Wheaton scribed:
>
>>
>><***@uymail.com> wrote in message
>>news:23fb77a3-2ba2-4ca7-a0f9-***@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com....
>>> After all, a lot of people are laughing all the way to
>>> the bank.
>>>
>>
>>"Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac survived scrutiny by manipulating, cajoling, and
>>lobbying politicians and hiring board members who were politicos (e.g. Jamie
>>Gorelick) rather than mortgage gurus. They hired lobbyists, gave massive
>>donations, obtained nice tax breaks, and sailed below the regulatory radar
>>screen.
>>
>>Of the 354 lawmakers who received money from Freddie and Fannie between 1989
>>and 2008, Sen. Chris Dodd received the most. But next was . . . drumroll . .
>>. Barack Obama."
>>
>>"So it would appear that this is precisely what Obama has been railing
>>against: Washington insiders lining the pockets of other Washington insiders
>>while the taxpayers ultimately have to foot the bill. The Agent of Change,
>>it seems, didn't exactly walk the walk on this one."
>>
>>http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/rubin/30411
>>
>Can you guess which of the current candidates was a staunch supporter of
>deregulating the financial sector? Hint: John McCain.

Hit return by mistake.

I'm trying to recall whether McSame's fight for deregulation of the
financial sector was before, during, or after his involvement with Keating
in the fraud and scandal that brought down the S&L industry, costing the
taxpayers billions of dollars.

John, all you have done in a lame attempt to slam Obama is copy and paste
from a far-right blog. Nothing but silly innuendo. No facts, as usual.

Did you want to start a political thread discussing the merits of the two
candidates? I don't think we do, but I'm game if you want to play.

Maybe we can start by talking about how GW Bush fundamentally repealed the
Predatory Lending Act, which allowed the financial community to convince
(hard-sell) the less fortunate to take out the loans that have gone sour.
Maybe you'd like to discuss McCain's history in depth? If you support
McCain, I don't think you want to go there. So, let's stop with the
politicalization of a national tragedy that effects people of all political
parties. There's more than enough blame to go around. Don't even try to
polarize it.

--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)

Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
Knowing the facts could save your life.
http://www.breastthermography.info
John Wheaton
2008-09-17 21:30:49 UTC
Permalink
"Ed Jay" <***@aes-intl.com> wrote in message
news:***@4ax.com...
So, let's stop with the
> politicalization of a national tragedy that effects people of all
> political
> parties. There's more than enough blame to go around. Don't even try to
> polarize it.
>

In everything that I have read, 3 acts seem to be at the root of the current
financial crunch, and 1 came from the Repubs, (Phil Graham, although it was
signed by Clinton), and the other 2 came from the Dems.

The bulk of the issues with Freddie and Fannie do seem to have Dem roots,
from primarily Dems managing them.

1) "1999 passage of the Graham-Leach-Biley Act dismantled the wall
established in 1933 by the Glass-Steagle Act and allowed commercial banks to
acquire brokerage firms."
http://www.researchstock.com:80/cgi-bin/rview.cgi?c=commenta&rsrc=RC-20031117-F

"the principal piece of financial deregulation over the past decade was the
reform of Glass-Steagall, the law that separated investment banks from
deposit-taking ones. This reform was sponsored by McCain's friend, former
Republican Senator Phil Gramm, but ending the division between the two types
of bank was a policy that the Clinton team also supported, which does not
fit the Obama narrative. And during the current crisis, the Glass-Steagall
reform has proved to be a boon. It has cleared the way for relatively
healthy deposit-taking banks, such as JP Morgan and Bank of America, to
rescue desperate investment banks, such as Bear Stearns and Merrill Lynch.
Without that piece of deregulation, we would all be in more trouble.

The regulation-versus-deregulation rhetoric is appealingly simple, and both
parties abuse it. Republicans like to say they will get the economy going by
cutting red tape. Democrats like to say that they will make the economy more
stable by demanding rational oversight. Neither claim is worth much.
The Republicans fail to acknowledge that the easy economic gains from
deregulation were exhausted more than two decades ago, when clearly
destructive restrictions on competition in trucking, airlines and so on were
scrapped by Carter and Reagan. The Democrats fail to acknowledge that there
is a limit to what government oversight can do. Modern financial
institutions are so complex that government inspectors are hard pressed to
understand their trading strategies. That is why an outfit such as
Citigroup, a deposit-taking institution theoretically overseen by multiple
government bodies including the Fed, could park billions of dollars of toxic
mortgage securities in off-balance-sheet vehicles, with nary a protest from
regulators.

Yes, Wall Street's woes reflect greed and reckless borrowing. And yes, some
regulatory reform is necessary. But you can't blame the mess on either
political party -- at least not if you want to remain honest.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2008/09/obamas_faulty_logic.html#more

2) "In 1977, Carter, along with a Democrat Congress, created a worthy
project with noble intentions - the Community Reinvestment Act. Over strong
industry
objections, it mandated that all banks meet the credit needs of their entire
communities.
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=305938528597493

3) "In 1995, President Clinton imposed even stronger regulations and
performance tests that coerced banks to substantially increase loans to
low-income,
poverty-area borrowers or face fines or possible restrictions on expansion.
These revisions allowed for securitization of CRA loans containing subprime
mortgages." http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=305938528597493

4) "A group called the Center for Responsive Politics keeps track of which
politicians get Fannie and Freddie political contributions. The top three
U.S. senators getting big Fannie and Freddie political bucks were Democrats
and No. 2 is Sen. Barack Obama.
Now remember, he's only been in the Senate four years, but he still managed
to grab the No. 2 spot ahead of John Kerry - decades in the Senate - and
Chris Dodd, who is chairman of the Senate Banking Committee.

Fannie and Freddie have been creations of the congressional Democrats and
the Clinton White House, designed to make mortgages available to more people
and, as it turns out, some people who couldn't afford them.

Fannie and Freddie have also been places for big Washington Democrats to go
to work in the semi-private sector and pocket millions. The Clinton
administration's White House Budget Director Franklin Raines ran Fannie and
collected $50 million. Jamie Gorelick - Clinton Justice Department
official - worked for Fannie and took home $26 million. Big Democrat Jim
Johnson, recently on Obama's VP search committee, has hauled in millions
from his Fannie Mae CEO job.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,423701,00.html
Ed Jay
2008-09-18 00:05:59 UTC
Permalink
John Wheaton scribed:

>"Ed Jay" <***@aes-intl.com> wrote in message
>news:***@4ax.com...
>So, let's stop with the politicalization of a national tragedy that effects people of all
>> political parties. There's more than enough blame to go around. Don't even try to
>> polarize it.
>>
>In everything that I have read, 3 acts seem to be at the root of the current
>financial crunch, and 1 came from the Repubs, (Phil Graham, although it was
>signed by Clinton), and the other 2 came from the Dems.

OK, John, you want to debate, I'll be happy to debate you.
>
>The bulk of the issues with Freddie and Fannie do seem to have Dem roots,
>from primarily Dems managing them.
>
>1) "1999 passage of the Graham-Leach-Biley Act dismantled the wall
>established in 1933 by the Glass-Steagle Act and allowed commercial banks to
>acquire brokerage firms."
>http://www.researchstock.com:80/cgi-bin/rview.cgi?c=commenta&rsrc=RC-20031117-F
>
>"the principal piece of financial deregulation over the past decade was the
>reform of Glass-Steagall, the law that separated investment banks from
>deposit-taking ones. This reform was sponsored by McCain's friend, former
>Republican Senator Phil Gramm, but ending the division between the two types
>of bank was a policy that the Clinton team also supported, which does not
>fit the Obama narrative. And during the current crisis, the Glass-Steagall
>reform has proved to be a boon. It has cleared the way for relatively
>healthy deposit-taking banks, such as JP Morgan and Bank of America, to
>rescue desperate investment banks, such as Bear Stearns and Merrill Lynch.
>Without that piece of deregulation, we would all be in more trouble.

In 1999, John McCain voted along party lines (what a maverick!) for passage
of the reformed 1933 Glass-Steagall Act and other laws that impeded
affiliations between banking, securities, insurance and other firms.
<http://tinyurl.com/5lwv6z>

Yes, Phil Gramm sponsored the bill. That is the same Phil Gramm who is now
an economic advisor to McCain's campaign.

While speaking in favor of bank deregulation on the floor of the senate,
John McCain said, “This legislation takes a small but important step toward
eliminating the tremendous regulatory burden imposed on financial
institutions…One principal reason banks are unable to make loans is the
bewildering array of statutory and regulatory restrictions and paperwork
requirements imposed by Congress and the regulatory agencies.”
(Congressional Record, 11/19/93)

McCain has also said that the best thing government can do for business Is
“Stay out of its way.” On the floor on the Senate in 2000, John McCain said,
“I am convinced that the best thing government can often do to advance the
fortunes of the private sector is to stay out of its way..” (Congressional
Record, 10/3/00)

While speaking about the cable and satellite television during an appearance
on CNN’s “On the Money,” John McCain said, “I am a deregulator. I believe in
deregulation.” (CNN, “In the Money,” 7/13/03)

Until deregulation recently jumped up and bit McCain on the butt, causing
him to suddenly decide he was for more regulation, he had a long history of
promoting deregulation. In fact, McCain based his 2008 campaign on promoting
deregulation:

During a McCain town hall meeting in Kentucky, McCain said, “I believe that
the fundamentals of our economy are good..I don't think anyone who wants to
increase the burden of government regulation and higher taxes has any real
understanding of economics and the economy and what is needed in order to
ensure the future of this country.” (Inez, Kentucky, 4/23/08)

John McCain said, “We need to return to the Reagan years. We need to have
fiscal conservatism. We need less government. We need less regulation.”
(PBS, Washington Week, 1/25/08)

Yesterday, McCain flipped at a rally in Tampa, and suddenly embraced
government regulation. "Government has a clear responsibility to act in
defense of the public interest, and that's exactly what I intend to do. In
my administration...we're going to enact and enforce reforms to make sure
that these outrages never happen in the first place."

As Obama said in his response, "John McCain has spent decades in Washington
supporting financial institutions instead of their customers....So let's be
clear: What we've seen the last few days is nothing less than the final
verdict on an economic philosophy that has completely failed."
>
<snip>
>
>Yes, Wall Street's woes reflect greed and reckless borrowing. And yes, some
>regulatory reform is necessary. But you can't blame the mess on either
>political party -- at least not if you want to remain honest.
>http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2008/09/obamas_faulty_logic.html#more

I'm not interested in, nor do I think any other reader is interested in the
opinion or blog of any partisan hacks, such as that you cite, above. Let's
try to stick to the facts, eh.

>2) "In 1977, Carter, along with a Democrat Congress, created a worthy
>project with noble intentions - the Community Reinvestment Act.
>
>3) "In 1995, President Clinton imposed even stronger regulations and
>performance tests that coerced banks to substantially increase loans to
>low-income, poverty-area borrowers or face fines or possible restrictions on expansion.
>
Correct. The Democrats, renowned for their interest in assisting the
individual and not the corporations, attempted to make it easier for the
lower income class to obtain loans. It was an altruistic endeavor, as is
aptly pointed out. What happened after that, the Bush Administration, led to
the current disaster.

The refusal of the Bush Administration to police lenders and enforce the
Predatory Lending Law opened the door to the sub-prime crisis. Under no
obligation to obey the laws, banks and mortgage companies actively pursued
making loans to people who they knew couldn't ultimately afford to pay for
them. But, the current debacle begs the question, 'why can't people pay for
their mortgages?'

According to McCain, Bush did a wonderful job with the economy. In fact,
according to McCain, “the fundamentals of our economy are strong.’ The facts
fly in the face of McCain's ridiculous observation.

In 1999 the average American family spent $3,200 on cost of living expenses.
In 2007, $7,585. The average household income in 2007 was some $2,500 less
than in 1999. Income has gone way down, while the cost of living has soared.

One in five Americans are unemployed for more than 26 weeks. 37 million
Americans are living in poverty. Existing home sales fell by 22% in 2007.
Bush inherited a surplus. We now have an enormous deficit. The debt has
increased over $4 trillion since 2001. We are spending $10 billion a month
in Iraq. The money is leaving the country. The fundamentals of this economy
are strong? The fundamentals of our economy are strong? Give us a break!!

>4) "A group called the Center for Responsive Politics keeps track of which
>politicians get Fannie and Freddie political contributions. The top three
>U.S. senators getting big Fannie and Freddie political bucks were Democrats
>and No. 2 is Sen. Barack Obama.
>Now remember, he's only been in the Senate four years, but he still managed
>to grab the No. 2 spot ahead of John Kerry - decades in the Senate - and
>Chris Dodd, who is chairman of the Senate Banking Committee.

Sounds really ominous, doesn't it? I mean, it really makes Obama out to be
the recipient of humongous funds...until you check the record and find out
that Obama received a total of only about $105,000 dollars combined from
the Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae PACs. Woo hoo! How does that compare to the
millions received by McCain from lobbyists and special interest groups? What
a joke...and another Republican half-truth!!!!
>
>Fannie and Freddie have also been places for big Washington Democrats to go
>to work in the semi-private sector and pocket millions. The Clinton
>administration's White House Budget Director Franklin Raines ran Fannie and
>collected $50 million. Jamie Gorelick - Clinton Justice Department
>official - worked for Fannie and took home $26 million. Big Democrat Jim
>Johnson, recently on Obama's VP search committee, has hauled in millions
>from his Fannie Mae CEO job.
>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,423701,00.html
>
Another opinion piece from that fair and balanced faux news. :-))))) That
said, it's true that a couple of Dems have taken lucrative jobs with Fannie
Mae, but kind of sad considering how much money Republican congressmen have
made by becoming lobbyists when they leave Congress, oftentimes before their
terms are up, so they can avoid the law.

Argue all you want about how our economic problems aren't the fault of the
Republicans, or that fault is to be shared with the Democratic party. Those
arguments are patently absurd. Not only are the actions of the Bush
administration to blame for the current situation, on Wall Street as well as
by the American citizenry, but John McCain supported those Bush activities,
and he still publicly states that Bush did a good job. McCain was and still
is part of the problem. John McCain is not only at fault, but he stupidly
doesn't think there's a problem. After all, 'the fundamentals of our economy
are strong.'

Has the economy affected you, John? I understand that attendance at most
dance conventions is down 8% - 12%. The reason most often given? "I can't
afford to go." Which Democrat do you want to blame?

Please...If you want to try to refute anything I've written, or bring up
anything new, please bring facts and not opinions or blogs, etc. After all,
it was you who castigated me back in 2003 for quoting a blog. ;-)

--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)

Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
Knowing the facts could save your life.
http://www.breastthermography.info
John Wheaton
2008-09-18 07:25:06 UTC
Permalink
"Ed Jay" <***@aes-intl.com> wrote in message
news:***@4ax.com...
>
> OK, John, you want to debate, I'll be happy to debate you.
>>
>>The bulk of the issues with Freddie and Fannie do seem to have Dem roots,
>>from primarily Dems managing them.
>>
>>1) "1999 passage of the Graham-Leach-Biley Act dismantled the wall
>>established in 1933 by the Glass-Steagle Act and allowed commercial banks
>>to
>>acquire brokerage firms."
>>http://www.researchstock.com:80/cgi-bin/rview.cgi?c=commenta&rsrc=RC-20031117-F

As I posted, it was sponsored by Phil Graham, supported by 80 senators, so
bi-partisan support, and promoted by the Clinton Administration. All hand
were dirty on the repeal of the Glass - Steagle Act as I posted.

"Yes, Wall Street's woes reflect greed and reckless borrowing. And yes, some
regulatory reform is necessary. But you can't blame the mess on either
political party -- at least not if you want to remain honest."
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2008/09/obamas_faulty_logic.html#more

From the same story, "The Democrats fail to acknowledge that there is a
limit to what government oversight can do. Modern financial institutions are
so complex that government inspectors are hard pressed to understand their
trading strategies. That is why an outfit such as Citigroup, a
deposit-taking institution theoretically overseen by multiple government
bodies including the Fed, could park billions of dollars of toxic mortgage
securities in off-balance-sheet vehicles, with nary a protest from
regulators.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2008/09/obamas_faulty_logic.html#more

As for the rest, many business journals are crediting Government
Intervention, mainly by the well intentioned Carter and Clinton
Administration for what we have today.

"In 1977, Carter, along with a Democrat Congress, created a worthy project
with noble intentions - the Community Reinvestment Act. Over strong industry
objections, it mandated that all banks meet the credit needs of their entire
communities.
In 1995, President Clinton imposed even stronger regulations and performance
tests that coerced banks to substantially increase loans to low-income,
poverty-area borrowers or face fines or possible restrictions on expansion.
These revisions allowed for securitization of CRA loans containing subprime
mortgages.

By 1997, good loans were bundled with poor ones and sold as prime packages
to institutions here and abroad. That shifted risk from the loan
originators, freeing banks to begin pyramiding and make more of these
profitable subprime products.

Under two young, well-intended presidents, therefore, big-government plans
and mandates played a significant role in the current subprime mortgage mess
and its catastrophic consequences for the U.S. and international economies.

Hardest-hit by the mortgage foreclosures have been the citizens that
Democrats always claim to help most - inner-city residents who fell victim
to low or no down payment schemes, unexpected adjustable rates, deceptive
loan applications and commission-hungry salespeople.

Now we're having to bail out at huge cost Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the
very agencies that were supposed to stabilize the system. In time, this
should improve the situation. But the party of Carter and Clinton that
midwifed our mortgage mess now wants to be trusted to take over and have the
government run our entire system of health care!

This is the fourth in a five-part series running this week. The full series
is available at www.IBDeditorials.com/specialseries.
http://www.ibdeditorials.com:80/IBDArticles.aspx?id=305938528597493
Ed Jay
2008-09-18 15:17:01 UTC
Permalink
John Wheaton scribed:

>
>"Ed Jay" <***@aes-intl.com> wrote in message
>news:***@4ax.com...
>>
>> OK, John, you want to debate, I'll be happy to debate you.
>>>
>>>The bulk of the issues with Freddie and Fannie do seem to have Dem roots,
>>>from primarily Dems managing them.
>>>
>>>1) "1999 passage of the Graham-Leach-Biley Act dismantled the wall
>>>established in 1933 by the Glass-Steagle Act and allowed commercial banks
>>>to acquire brokerage firms."
>>>http://www.researchstock.com:80/cgi-bin/rview.cgi?c=commenta&rsrc=RC-20031117-F
>
>As I posted, it was sponsored by Phil Graham, supported by 80 senators, so
>bi-partisan support, and promoted by the Clinton Administration. All hand
>were dirty on the repeal of the Glass - Steagle Act as I posted.

Geez, John, I posted the actual record and you still claim imaginary data.
The vote was 54 to 44. Only two Democrats voted for the bill.
<<http://tinyurl.com/5lwv6z>>
<http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=106&session=1&vote=00105>

By the way, if you missed it from the 1999 story I posted separately:

"The chairman of the Senate Banking Committee, Texas Republican Phil
Gramm,himself collected more than $1.5 million in cash from the three
industries during the last five years: $496,610 from the insurance industry,
$760,404 from the securities industry and $407,956 from banks."
>
>"Yes, Wall Street's woes reflect greed and reckless borrowing. And yes, some
>regulatory reform is necessary. But you can't blame the mess on either
>political party -- at least not if you want to remain honest."
>http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2008/09/obamas_faulty_logic.html#more
>
>From the same story,

This is not a 'story.' It is an opinion piece. Please base your arguments on
facts, not some partisan hack's opinion.
>
>As for the rest, many business journals are crediting Government
>Intervention, mainly by the well intentioned Carter and Clinton
>Administration for what we have today.

Most reputable, non-partisan journals credit the mess on the exploitation of
these altruistic endeavors on deregulation, avarice, Bush's policy and
stupidity.

Carter and Clinton's endeavors were based on benevolence. Bush's weren't.
>
>By 1997, good loans were bundled with poor ones and sold as prime packages
>to institutions here and abroad. That shifted risk from the loan
>originators, freeing banks to begin pyramiding and make more of these
>profitable subprime products.

Yes. Wall Street's greed is legendary.
>
>Under two young, well-intended presidents, therefore, big-government plans
>and mandates played a significant role in the current subprime mortgage mess
>and its catastrophic consequences for the U.S. and international economies.

If you are going to quote someone else's opinion, please have the good
judgment to use quotation marks! Otherwise, you are plagiarizing from the
editorial you cited.

That said, the words are a half truth, at best. Two Democratic presidents
laid a foundation to assist the less fortunate to buy homes and secure
business loans. Then, along comes a not-so-well-meaning president Bush, who
exploits that altruistic endeavor in favor of his buddies.
>
>Hardest-hit by the mortgage foreclosures have been the citizens that
>Democrats always claim to help most - inner-city residents who fell victim
>to low or no down payment schemes, unexpected adjustable rates, deceptive
>loan applications and commission-hungry salespeople.

Once again, please use quotation marks to show that you are merely quoting
another's editorial opinion.
>
>Now we're having to bail out at huge cost Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the
>very agencies that were supposed to stabilize the system. In time, this
>should improve the situation. But the party of Carter and Clinton that
>midwifed our mortgage mess now wants to be trusted to take over and have the
>government run our entire system of health care!

More unquoted editorial comment!!!!

We're having to bail out these guys because of Gramm, McCain and Bush. No
matter how you may try to spin it, the blame lies where it belongs.

--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)

Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
Knowing the facts could save your life.
http://www.breastthermography.info
John Wheaton
2008-09-18 07:39:49 UTC
Permalink
"Ed Jay" <***@aes-intl.com> wrote in message
news:***@4ax.com...
>>
> Another opinion piece from that fair and balanced faux news. :-))))) That
> said, it's true that a couple of Dems have taken lucrative jobs with
> Fannie
> Mae, but kind of sad considering how much money Republican congressmen
> have
> made by becoming lobbyists when they leave Congress, oftentimes before
> their
> terms are up, so they can avoid the law.

What we are discussing here us the Mortgage Industry/Credit/Wall Street
situation and you attempt to duck what is pertinent by throwing in a couple
of straw dogs.

When you don't like the facts you attack the messenger but the FOX article
was credited to The Center for Responsive Politics (CRP) is a nonpartisan
research group based in Washington, D.C. that tracks money in politics, and
the effect of money on elections and public policy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenSecrets.org

Now the Senate Banking Committee was responsible for overseeing Fannie &
Freddie, but the Dems that run that committee were being bought off by the
Dems that were running Fannie & Freddie!

"A group called the Center for Responsive Politics keeps track of which
politicians get Fannie and Freddie political contributions. The top three
U.S. senators getting big Fannie and Freddie political bucks were Democrats
and No. 2 is Sen. Barack Obama.

Now remember, he's only been in the Senate four years, but he still managed
to grab the No. 2 spot ahead of John Kerry - decades in the Senate - and
Chris Dodd, who is chairman of the Senate Banking Committee.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,423701,00.html

BTW Who does "reformer" Obama hire as his advisor? Big Democrat Jim
Johnson, recently on Obama's VP search committee, has hauled in millions
from his Fannie Mae CEO job.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,423701,00.html
Ed Jay
2008-09-18 15:41:20 UTC
Permalink
John Wheaton scribed:

>
>"Ed Jay" <***@aes-intl.com> wrote in message
>news:***@4ax.com...
>>>
>> Another opinion piece from that fair and balanced faux news. :-))))) That
>> said, it's true that a couple of Dems have taken lucrative jobs with
>> Fannie
>> Mae, but kind of sad considering how much money Republican congressmen
>> have
>> made by becoming lobbyists when they leave Congress, oftentimes before
>> their
>> terms are up, so they can avoid the law.
>
>What we are discussing here us the Mortgage Industry/Credit/Wall Street
>situation and you attempt to duck what is pertinent by throwing in a couple
>of straw dogs.

Bwahahaha!!!!
>
>When you don't like the facts you attack the messenger

Horse manure! When you don't like the facts you use partisan hack talking
points and opinions along with half-truths and spin to argue that the
Democrats are to blame for the woes caused by Republicans.

> but the FOX article
>was credited to The Center for Responsive Politics (CRP) is a nonpartisan
>research group based in Washington, D.C. that tracks money in politics, and
>the effect of money on elections and public policy.
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenSecrets.org

Yes, I don't take issue with who or what the CRP is.
>
>Now the Senate Banking Committee was responsible for overseeing Fannie &
>Freddie, but the Dems that run that committee were being bought off by the
>Dems that were running Fannie & Freddie!

You talk as if the cause of the problem is a recent occurrence, but that's
terribly naive, although a convenient attempt at escaping where the real
responsibility lies.

Phil Gramm was Chairman of the Banking Committee and John McCain chaired the
Commerce Committee when the laws were changed that ultimately allowed this
mess to occur. As I pointed out in my other post, Gramm received $1.5
million from the banking industry for his efforts. I haven't yet uncovered
how much McCain received, but you can bet his pocket was lined as well.

And, let's not forget the similar tragedy of the Savings and Loan debacle,
which cost the taxpayers billions. John McCain was an integral part of that
scandal, and barely escaped indictment for his roll in 'the Keating Five.'
McCain has a history of unethical behavior.
>
>"A group called the Center for Responsive Politics keeps track of which
>politicians get Fannie and Freddie political contributions. The top three
>U.S. senators getting big Fannie and Freddie political bucks were Democrats
>and No. 2 is Sen. Barack Obama.
>
>Now remember, he's only been in the Senate four years, but he still managed
>to grab the No. 2 spot ahead of John Kerry - decades in the Senate - and
>Chris Dodd, who is chairman of the Senate Banking Committee.
>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,423701,00.html

As I pointed out, Obama has received only $105,000 from their PACs. Not a
heck of a lot. Are you questioning where I got my data? I got it directly
from the records of the Center for Responsive Politics, so get off the high
horse.
>
>BTW Who does "reformer" Obama hire as his advisor? Big Democrat Jim
>Johnson, recently on Obama's VP search committee, has hauled in millions
>from his Fannie Mae CEO job.
>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,423701,00.html
>
What is wrong with that?

Who has the hypocrite "Mr. I'm against lobbying McCain" hired as his
campaign staff? Lobbyists. Scores of lobbyists. How many of McCain's
advisors have had to resign because of their lobbying and special interest
connections? Who is McCain's principal economic advisor? Phil Gramm, the
same partner he had that started this mess in 1999. You know, the guy that
said the economy is sound, but we're a nation of whiners.

You can try to spin this problem any way you want, use as many partisan
hacks to back you up, and all the half-truths you can conjure up, but, the
facts are clear: the vast majority of the blame is attributable to
Republicans; namely Phil Gramm, John McCain, and George W. Bush.

--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)

Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
Knowing the facts could save your life.
http://www.breastthermography.info
a***@uymail.com
2008-09-18 21:48:12 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 18, 11:41 am, Ed Jay <***@aes-intl.com> wrote:

> And, let's not forget the similar tragedy of the Savings and Loan debacle,
> which cost the taxpayers billions. John McCain was an integral part of that
> scandal, and barely escaped indictment for his roll in 'the Keating Five.'
> McCain has a history of unethical behavior.

Hmm. I remember the Keating Five, but didn't associate
McCain with the fiasco...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keating_Five

I wonder why the Democrats aren't making issue of this
in the current campaign... an issue that is very relevant
in light of the current fiasco.
John Wheaton
2008-09-18 23:03:24 UTC
Permalink
<***@uymail.com> wrote in message
news:d01860c9-74c6-40df-b1a9-***@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 18, 11:41 am, Ed Jay <***@aes-intl.com> wrote:
> Hmm. I remember the Keating Five, but didn't associate
> McCain with the fiasco...
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keating_Five
>
> I wonder why the Democrats aren't making issue of this
> in the current campaign... an issue that is very relevant
> in light of the current fiasco.

Because Democrat Bob Bennett who was the lead investigator in the S&L
problem has repeatedly defended McCain.
Ed Jay
2008-09-19 00:03:57 UTC
Permalink
John Wheaton scribed:

>
><***@uymail.com> wrote in message
>news:d01860c9-74c6-40df-b1a9-***@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
>> On Sep 18, 11:41 am, Ed Jay <***@aes-intl.com> wrote:
>> Hmm. I remember the Keating Five, but didn't associate
>> McCain with the fiasco...
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keating_Five
>>
>> I wonder why the Democrats aren't making issue of this
>> in the current campaign... an issue that is very relevant
>> in light of the current fiasco.
>
>Because Democrat Bob Bennett who was the lead investigator in the S&L
>problem has repeatedly defended McCain.
>
Don't worry, with the filthy campaigning going on, it is already beginning
to rear its head. A couple of days ago I heard one of the talking heads
refer to 'McCain had his own number in the Keating Five scandal.'

--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)

Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
Knowing the facts could save your life.
http://www.breastthermography.info
Ed Jay
2008-09-19 17:14:04 UTC
Permalink
Ed Jay scribed:

>John Wheaton scribed:
>
>>
>><***@uymail.com> wrote in message
>>news:d01860c9-74c6-40df-b1a9-***@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Sep 18, 11:41 am, Ed Jay <***@aes-intl.com> wrote:
>>> Hmm. I remember the Keating Five, but didn't associate
>>> McCain with the fiasco...
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keating_Five
>>>
>>> I wonder why the Democrats aren't making issue of this
>>> in the current campaign... an issue that is very relevant
>>> in light of the current fiasco.
>>
>>Because Democrat Bob Bennett who was the lead investigator in the S&L
>>problem has repeatedly defended McCain.
>>
>Don't worry, with the filthy campaigning going on, it is already beginning
>to rear its head. A couple of days ago I heard one of the talking heads
>refer to 'McCain had his own number in the Keating Five scandal.'

Sooner than I thought, but it's started:

"McCain's Economic Policy Keating Five All Over Again"
<http://tinyurl.com/3ug5m5>

--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)

Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
Knowing the facts could save your life.
http://www.breastthermography.info
John Wheaton
2008-09-18 23:01:46 UTC
Permalink
"Ed Jay" <***@aes-intl.com> wrote in message
news:***@4ax.com...
> John Wheaton scribed:
>>
>>When you don't like the facts you attack the messenger
>
> Horse manure! When you don't like the facts you use partisan hack talking
> points and opinions along with half-truths and spin to argue that the
> Democrats are to blame for the woes caused by Republicans.
>
>> but the FOX article
>>was credited to The Center for Responsive Politics (CRP) is a nonpartisan
>>research group based in Washington, D.C. that tracks money in politics,
>>and
>>the effect of money on elections and public policy.
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenSecrets.org
>
> Yes, I don't take issue with who or what the CRP is.

Go back and look at your post. You ignored what it said and dismissed it
because it was reported by FOX.

You still haven't addressed what the Center for Responsive Politics stated
about it being Dems that took the most money from Fannie and Freddie.

>>Now the Senate Banking Committee was responsible for overseeing Fannie &
>>Freddie, but the Dems that run that committee were being bought off by the
>>Dems that were running Fannie & Freddie!
>
> You talk as if the cause of the problem is a recent occurrence, but that's
> terribly naive, although a convenient attempt at escaping where the real
> responsibility lies.

I was quite specific in posting stories that gave credit to both parties,
although a bit more credit does go to the Dems and their effort to regulate
fairness.

> Phil Gramm was Chairman of the Banking Committee and John McCain chaired
> the
> Commerce Committee when the laws were changed that ultimately allowed this
> mess to occur. As I pointed out in my other post, Gramm received $1.5
> million from the banking industry for his efforts. I haven't yet uncovered
> how much McCain received, but you can bet his pocket was lined as well.
>
> And, let's not forget the similar tragedy of the Savings and Loan debacle,
> which cost the taxpayers billions. John McCain was an integral part of
> that
> scandal, and barely escaped indictment for his roll in 'the Keating Five.'
> McCain has a history of unethical behavior.

Go back and read abit more and you'll find that Democrat Bob Bennett who was
a lead investigator in the S&L debacle later testified FOR McCain and as
recently as last year was still defending him.

>>"A group called the Center for Responsive Politics keeps track of which
>>politicians get Fannie and Freddie political contributions. The top three
>>U.S. senators getting big Fannie and Freddie political bucks were
>>Democrats
>>and No. 2 is Sen. Barack Obama.
>>
>>Now remember, he's only been in the Senate four years, but he still
>>managed
>>to grab the No. 2 spot ahead of John Kerry - decades in the Senate - and
>>Chris Dodd, who is chairman of the Senate Banking Committee.
>>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,423701,00.html
>
> As I pointed out, Obama has received only $105,000 from their PACs. Not a
> heck of a lot. Are you questioning where I got my data? I got it directly
> from the records of the Center for Responsive Politics, so get off the
> high
> horse.
>>
>>BTW Who does "reformer" Obama hire as his advisor? Big Democrat Jim
>>Johnson, recently on Obama's VP search committee, has hauled in millions
>>from his Fannie Mae CEO job.
>>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,423701,00.html
>>
> What is wrong with that?

It has been Dems heading up Freddie and Fannie for some time and you seem to
know want to give any responsibility to those heading them.

> Who has the hypocrite "Mr. I'm against lobbying McCain" hired as his
> campaign staff? Lobbyists. Scores of lobbyists. How many of McCain's
> advisors have had to resign because of their lobbying and special interest
> connections? Who is McCain's principal economic advisor? Phil Gramm, the
> same partner he had that started this mess in 1999. You know, the guy that
> said the economy is sound, but we're a nation of whiners.
>
> You can try to spin this problem any way you want, use as many partisan
> hacks to back you up, and all the half-truths you can conjure up, but, the
> facts are clear: the vast majority of the blame is attributable to
> Republicans; namely Phil Gramm, John McCain, and George W. Bush.

None of the business periodicals that I have read agree with you. Over
whelming they give the majority of credit to what Carter and Clinton did.
Ed Jay
2008-09-19 00:01:20 UTC
Permalink
John Wheaton scribed:

>
>"Ed Jay" <***@aes-intl.com> wrote in message
>news:***@4ax.com...
>> John Wheaton scribed:
>>>
>>>When you don't like the facts you attack the messenger
>>
>> Horse manure! When you don't like the facts you use partisan hack talking
>> points and opinions along with half-truths and spin to argue that the
>> Democrats are to blame for the woes caused by Republicans.
>>
>>> but the FOX article
>>>was credited to The Center for Responsive Politics (CRP) is a nonpartisan
>>>research group based in Washington, D.C. that tracks money in politics,
>>>and
>>>the effect of money on elections and public policy.
>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenSecrets.org
>>
>> Yes, I don't take issue with who or what the CRP is.
>
>Go back and look at your post. You ignored what it said and dismissed it
>because it was reported by FOX.

No I didn't. I skipped over the first and second paragraphs to report that
the total amount was a trifling amount. BFD that Obama was the 2nd biggest
recipient.
>
>You still haven't addressed what the Center for Responsive Politics stated
>about it being Dems that took the most money from Fannie and Freddie.
>
I did. I dismissed the assertion as having no merit, because the amount of
money given is trite.

>>>Now the Senate Banking Committee was responsible for overseeing Fannie &
>>>Freddie, but the Dems that run that committee were being bought off by the
>>>Dems that were running Fannie & Freddie!
>>
>> You talk as if the cause of the problem is a recent occurrence, but that's
>> terribly naive, although a convenient attempt at escaping where the real
>> responsibility lies.
>
>I was quite specific in posting stories that gave credit to both parties,
>although a bit more credit does go to the Dems and their effort to regulate
>fairness.

Your contention is that the well-meaning efforts of Carter and Clinton are
the underlying cause of the problem. I take issue with that conclusion.
>
>> Phil Gramm was Chairman of the Banking Committee and John McCain chaired
>> the
>> Commerce Committee when the laws were changed that ultimately allowed this
>> mess to occur. As I pointed out in my other post, Gramm received $1.5
>> million from the banking industry for his efforts. I haven't yet uncovered
>> how much McCain received, but you can bet his pocket was lined as well.
>>
>> And, let's not forget the similar tragedy of the Savings and Loan debacle,
>> which cost the taxpayers billions. John McCain was an integral part of
>> that
>> scandal, and barely escaped indictment for his roll in 'the Keating Five.'
>> McCain has a history of unethical behavior.
>
>Go back and read abit more and you'll find that Democrat Bob Bennett who was
>a lead investigator in the S&L debacle later testified FOR McCain and as
>recently as last year was still defending him.

I've also had the esteem displeasure of meeting Keating and hearing directly
from him what happened, and who it was who greased the skids.
>
>>>"A group called the Center for Responsive Politics keeps track of which
>>>politicians get Fannie and Freddie political contributions. The top three
>>>U.S. senators getting big Fannie and Freddie political bucks were
>>>Democrats
>>>and No. 2 is Sen. Barack Obama.
>>>
>>>Now remember, he's only been in the Senate four years, but he still
>>>managed
>>>to grab the No. 2 spot ahead of John Kerry - decades in the Senate - and
>>>Chris Dodd, who is chairman of the Senate Banking Committee.
>>>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,423701,00.html
>>
>> As I pointed out, Obama has received only $105,000 from their PACs. Not a
>> heck of a lot. Are you questioning where I got my data? I got it directly
>> from the records of the Center for Responsive Politics, so get off the
>> high
>> horse.
>>>
>>>BTW Who does "reformer" Obama hire as his advisor? Big Democrat Jim
>>>Johnson, recently on Obama's VP search committee, has hauled in millions
>>>from his Fannie Mae CEO job.
>>>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,423701,00.html
>>>
>> What is wrong with that?
>
>It has been Dems heading up Freddie and Fannie for some time and you seem to
>know want to give any responsibility to those heading them.

I didn't say that, but since you ask...it was two people who happen to be
Democrats who headed up the institutions. Do you blame me for what has
happened? After all, I'm currently registered as a Democrat. Nonsense!

A lot of people lost money on Hewlett-Packard stock. It was run by Carly
Fiorina, a Republican, and up to yesterday, a McCain advisor. Do we say that
the Republicans ran HP into the ground? I don't understand your
justification for extrapolating the _possible_ foibles of two people to an
entire political party? Other than it is convenient to do so.

The management of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac didn't lay the ground work for
the current problem. That blame rests squarely on the shoulders of Phil
Gramm, George Bush, and John McCain, particularly Bush. No matter how you
want to twist it, that blame isn't going anywhere, except to them.
>
>> Who has the hypocrite "Mr. I'm against lobbying McCain" hired as his
>> campaign staff? Lobbyists. Scores of lobbyists. How many of McCain's
>> advisors have had to resign because of their lobbying and special interest
>> connections? Who is McCain's principal economic advisor? Phil Gramm, the
>> same partner he had that started this mess in 1999. You know, the guy that
>> said the economy is sound, but we're a nation of whiners.
>>
>> You can try to spin this problem any way you want, use as many partisan
>> hacks to back you up, and all the half-truths you can conjure up, but, the
>> facts are clear: the vast majority of the blame is attributable to
>> Republicans; namely Phil Gramm, John McCain, and George W. Bush.
>
>None of the business periodicals that I have read agree with you. Over
>whelming they give the majority of credit to what Carter and Clinton did.
>
I'm sure, John, but you've made your sources of information very clear.

As I've said, there's no question that Carter and Clinton laid the ground
that Bush spun and exploited for the benefit of his pals. Do you honestly
think that a million lower-income families would have lost their homes and
life savings had GWB enforced the Predatory Lending Act? He didn't even go
to Congress to change the law. He simply announced it wouldn't be enforced,
and the banks and mortgage company telemarketers went to work selling
zero-down, sub-prime loans that ultimately were unaffordable. The banks and
mortgage companies knew what they were doing, and now we are paying for it.

The reality is that the conservative Republicans have been in control of the
economy for years, and with the exception of the Clinton years, the economy
has suffered. I recognize that it's difficult for Republicans to accept any
responsibility for the problem, but the facts are clear, and speak loudly at
who must bear the principal blame..

Anyway, don't you think we've beat this horse enough? We have a serious
problem that needs to be fixed, and arguing to escape responsibility or
place or misplace blame isn't going to solve anything. We have to work
together, and by working together we can win. Yes we can! Fight with me.
Fight with me. Fight with me. :-))

(Are you coming down before Halloween Swing/Hustle Thing? We really need to
sit down and tip one, or two, or ten together.)

--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)

Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
Knowing the facts could save your life.
http://www.breastthermography.info
a***@uymail.com
2008-09-19 05:57:14 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 18, 8:01 pm, Ed Jay <***@aes-intl.com> wrote:

> No I didn't. I skipped over the first and second paragraphs to report that
> the total amount was a trifling amount. BFD that Obama was the 2nd biggest
> recipient.

This is something Obama needs to figure out for himself.
Oftentimes, influence and integrity is slowly sold because
of pragmatism. Perhaps Obama hasn't accepted much
simply because he just hasn't been offered the same
amounts as the more established politicians. The proof
of the pudding is whether the slippery slope of monetary
enticement would suck him deeper into the "dark" side.
I'm sure a lot of people were disappointed when Obama
chose not to abide by the public-funding provision of the
campaign finance rules, supposedly a key reform to
reduce the spiraling costs of political campaigns that
inevitably consume politicians and make them
indebted to special interests.
memiki
2008-09-19 11:36:52 UTC
Permalink
I have found "tit for tat" discussion and/or debate on the merits and
accomplishments of the candidates to be useless and frustrating. Most
Democrats who are for Obama have deaf ears, as do those of us who are
Centrists or Conservative Republicans. In the end, it will be the TV
debates that carry the most weight methinks.

I will not vote for Obama as his roots and the mentors mentioned in
his book are too far to the left, and his Chicago machine political
backers are admitted Socialists or Communists. Obama may or may not be
either, but I have done my own research and his beliefs and solutions
are not what I want for my country. Aforementioned statement might
bring as much anger directed at me from Liberals as I feel when I hear
them say "Four more years of Bush" or Obama's version of "Change".

As a registered Democrat, I associate my beliefs with two people I
admire and respect who temporarily left the Democrat party because
they felt the good of the country came before their party -- Joe
Lieberman and Lynn Forester de Rothschild, recently resigned prominent
Hillary Clinton supporter and member of the DNC Platform, who said:

"In an election as important as this, we must choose the candidate
who has a proven record of bipartisanship and reforming government,
and that's John McCain. We can't afford a president who lacks
experience and judgment and has never crossed party lines to work for
meaningful reform. Amid tough economic times and foreign policy
concerns, we need someone who is ready to lead. Although I am a
Democrate, I recognize that it's more important to put country ahead
of party and that's why I support John McCain".

Rothschild, an attorney and businesswoman, supported Senator Clinton
during her Democratic primaries. She will campaign for Senator McCain
through Election Day.


Miki
Ed Jay
2008-09-19 15:43:57 UTC
Permalink
memiki scribed:

>I have found "tit for tat" discussion and/or debate on the merits and
>accomplishments of the candidates to be useless and frustrating.

I agree, as I'm sure any intelligent person would. I find it somewhat
humorous that you would begin your comments with the above, and then tell us
why you think McCain is the better choice, particularly as you expound on
mostly meaningless Republican talking points. ;-)

Unless you are trying to hijack the thread to make campaign speeches for
McCain, I don't understand why you posted your reasons for voting against
Obama and for McCain in a thread that's discussing the current financial
crisis.

My words are not meant to support Obama, nor were they initially intended to
defame McCain as a candidate. I responded to John's ludicrous original post
in which he inappropriately and laughably placed blame for the current
financial crisis on the Democrats, instead of the Republicans, to whom the
vast majority of blame falls.

If you have been following the thread from the start, you would note that,
despite his altruistic motives, I blamed Bill Clinton for planting the seeds
that ultimately led to where we are today.

To be clear, it was Bush, McCain and Gramm that harvested the fruit of those
seeds and created the tragic mess we're in today.

John McCain played an integral roll in the groundwork that led to the
current crisis, and that's why his name has been brought into play. His
recent words illustrate that the man still doesn't understand the gravity of
the situation, nor his understanding of economy. Any of his recent words
I've cited serve to illustrate McCain's lame attempts to avoid taking
responsibility for his actions leading up to the crisis, beginning with his
staunch support of deregulating the financial industry in 1999.

Obama's name was brought into play by John. My words to refute John
pertained only to the measly $105,000 donation to Obama's campaign from
Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac PACs, the magnitude of which John tried to blow
out of proportion in an attempt to defame Obama.

You are correct, Miki...people who have made up their mind one way or the
other are going to be deaf to what others feel are reasons to refute their
choice. If you want to start a thread discussing the candidates, and as much
as I agree it would be folly and lead to tit-for-tat arguments (no reference
to Palin intended), have at it. You can count on me to join you. I will
participate, however, only on the condition that we discuss specific issues,
based on facts rather than subjective- or propaganda-driven essays, such as
the one you posted and that I'm responding to.

--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)

Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
Knowing the facts could save your life.
http://www.breastthermography.info
Jumpin' Jack
2008-09-19 18:00:50 UTC
Permalink
Ed Jay wrote:
> the measly $105,000 donation to Obama's campaign from
> Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac PACs,

First of all I'm not getting into this discussion......

Hey Ed,

You keep referring to this measly $105,000,.....how about you you give
me a measly $105,000...... just kidding, well, unless you're thinking
about it, and well, if you are I would have to think about it, well no,
I wouldn't.....SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!....LOL....Goodbye.

Jumpin' Jack

P.S. Just trying to lighten this thread up....
Ed Jay
2008-09-19 18:23:13 UTC
Permalink
Jumpin' Jack scribed:

>Ed Jay wrote:
>> the measly $105,000 donation to Obama's campaign from
>> Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac PACs,
>
>First of all I'm not getting into this discussion...

You be a smart man. :-)
>
>Hey Ed,
>
>You keep referring to this measly $105,000,..

It is measly compared to all the other moneys that have flowed into these
campaigns.

>...how about you you give
>me a measly $105,000...... just kidding, well, unless you're thinking
>about it, and well, if you are I would have to think about it, well no,
>I wouldn't.....SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!....LOL....Goodbye.

Tell you what, Jack...I'll give you an amount in proportion to the money
that's been donated to both campaigns, based on that $105k. Let's see, I
hear that about $500,000,000 has flowed.

($105,000/500,000,000) X $105,000 = $22.05. Hell, I've already given you
more than that playing poker. How about I bring you an O'Doul's tomorrow
night instead? :-)))
>
>Jumpin' Jack
>
>P.S. Just trying to lighten this thread up....

I hope it doesn't read as heated, but we can always use a good joke. Tell
you what...pay me...ummmm...ummmm...$22.10, and I'll post a joke. ;-)

--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)

Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
Knowing the facts could save your life.
http://www.breastthermography.info
memiki
2008-09-20 00:42:55 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 19, 8:43 am, Ed Jay <***@aes-intl.com> wrote:

> Unless you are trying to hijack the thread to make campaign speeches for
> McCain, I don't understand why you posted your reasons for voting against
> Obama and for McCain in a thread that's discussing the current financial
> crisis.
>
> My words are not meant to support Obama, nor were they initially intended to
> defame McCain as a candidate. I responded to John's ludicrous original post
> in which he inappropriately and laughably placed blame for the current
> financial crisis on the Democrats, instead of the Republicans, to whom the
> vast majority of blame falls.
>
> If you have been following the thread from the start, you would note that,
> despite his altruistic motives, I blamed Bill Clinton for planting the seeds
> that ultimately led to where we are today.
>
> To be clear, it was Bush, McCain and Gramm that harvested the fruit of those
> seeds and created the tragic mess we're in today.
>
> John McCain played an integral roll in the groundwork that led to the
> current crisis, and that's why his name has been brought into play. His
> recent words illustrate that the man still doesn't understand the gravity of
> the situation, nor his understanding of economy. Any of his recent words
> I've cited serve to illustrate McCain's lame attempts to avoid taking
> responsibility for his actions leading up to the crisis, beginning with his
> staunch support of deregulating the financial industry in 1999.
>
> Obama's name was brought into play by John. My words to refute John
> pertained only to the measly $105,000 donation to Obama's campaign from
> Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac PACs, the magnitude of which John tried to blow
> out of proportion in an attempt to defame Obama.

> You are correct, Miki...people who have made up their mind one way or the
> other are going to be deaf to what others feel are reasons to refute their
> choice. If you want to start a thread discussing the candidates, and as much
> as I agree it would be folly and lead to tit-for-tat arguments (no reference
> to Palin intended), have at it. You can count on me to join you. I will
> participate, however, only on the condition that we discuss specific issues,
> based on facts rather than subjective- or propaganda-driven essays, such as
> the one you posted and that I'm responding to.


First of all, Ed, my original post was not directed at you nor was it
a reply to any of your posts. I was not trying to hijack this
thread.......and I do not think my post was so off topic since the
names of presidents and current candidates, the words, "Democrats/
Republicans", along with their positives/negatives, appeared often
enough in this thread......the connection is there.

I said what I wanted to say in my OP.....and do not plan to engage
further.

Miki




>
> --
> Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)
>
> Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
> Knowing the facts could save your life.http://www.breastthermography.info
a***@uymail.com
2008-09-20 05:12:12 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 19, 8:42 pm, memiki <***@aol.com> wrote:

> I said what I wanted to say in my OP.....and do not plan to engage
> further.

It is your first amendment right to say what you will, and
newsgroups are great vehicles for expressing what you
think. Don't let anyone intimidate you. Sometimes,
they are just exercising their first amendment right to
retort.

I have learned a lot from the various posters in this NG,
in this thread as well as in others. It doesn't matter if
I, or any reader, agree or disagree with any particular
post or poster; it's the diversity of opinions that allows
us to have a bigger and better picture of the nation or
the world. How sad and boring it woud be if every post
or poster had the same opinion.
memiki
2008-09-20 21:32:13 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 19, 10:12 pm, ***@uymail.com wrote:
> On Sep 19, 8:42 pm, memiki <***@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > I said what I wanted to say in my OP.....and do not plan to engage
> > further.
>
> It is your first amendment right to say what you will, and
> newsgroups are great vehicles for expressing what you
> think.  Don't let anyone intimidate you.  Sometimes,
> they are just exercising their first amendment right to
> retort.
>
> I have learned a lot from the various posters in this NG,
> in this thread as well as in others.  It doesn't matter if
> I, or any reader, agree or disagree with any particular
> post or poster; it's the diversity of opinions that allows
> us to have a bigger and better picture of the nation or
> the world.  How sad and boring it woud be if every post
> or poster had the same opinion.

Hi avid_dan -- My thanks for taking the time to send your supportive
post. Not to worry.....I am not intimidated :) In the real world, I
prefer to not debate or argue as in most cases I see no purpose to it;
particularly since I have nothing to prove, and it is not necessary
for me to be "right" or to have the last word. Although it is not
always possible to do the same on cyberspace, I do my best to adhere
to this policy.

Miki
Ed Jay
2008-09-21 01:06:56 UTC
Permalink
memiki scribed:

>On Sep 19, 10:12 pm, ***@uymail.com wrote:
>> On Sep 19, 8:42 pm, memiki <***@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> > I said what I wanted to say in my OP.....and do not plan to engage
>> > further.
>>
>> It is your first amendment right to say what you will, and
>> newsgroups are great vehicles for expressing what you
>> think.  Don't let anyone intimidate you.  Sometimes,
>> they are just exercising their first amendment right to
>> retort.
>>
>> I have learned a lot from the various posters in this NG,
>> in this thread as well as in others.  It doesn't matter if
>> I, or any reader, agree or disagree with any particular
>> post or poster; it's the diversity of opinions that allows
>> us to have a bigger and better picture of the nation or
>> the world.  How sad and boring it woud be if every post
>> or poster had the same opinion.
>
>Hi avid_dan -- My thanks for taking the time to send your supportive
>post. Not to worry.....I am not intimidated :) In the real world, I
>prefer to not debate or argue as in most cases I see no purpose to it;
>particularly since I have nothing to prove, and it is not necessary
>for me to be "right" or to have the last word. Although it is not
>always possible to do the same on cyberspace, I do my best to adhere
>to this policy.
>
I can't imagine trying to intimidate you. :-))

You apparently found my post to you on the brusk side. Re-reading it I can
see how my words could be so interpreted. I assure you, though, that wasn't
my intent. I apologize if you were offended by it.

I'm delighted to be involved in a discussion about an issue, rather than the
usual my guy is better than your guy stuff. I saw your post as giving
potential to the thread decaying into a McCain versus Obama "discussion."
Re-read your post, and I'm sure you'll appreciate how I could have reached
that conclusion. I responded to prevent a segue. Again, sorry if you were
offended by my whining, not hostile, retort.

I gotta say, I don't know if one guy is 'better' than the other. I'm
supporting my guy based on his position on the issues that are important to
me, and to a lesser extent on my opinion of his character and judgment based
on my own personal observations and perceptions.

--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)

Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
Knowing the facts could save your life.
http://www.breastthermography.info
a***@uymail.com
2008-09-19 16:16:25 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 19, 7:36 am, memiki <***@aol.com> wrote:

> I will not vote for Obama as his roots and the mentors mentioned in
> his book are too far to the left, and his Chicago machine political
> backers are admitted Socialists or Communists. Obama may or may not be

Hey, lots of people are saying that with the nationalization
of key companies and businesses, we're going into
socialism and communism anyway... probably
unintentionally.

When housing and health care are being increasingly
owned and handled by the government, it's socialism. But,
this may or may not be a good thing, and a lot of the rest
of the world actually subscribe to this model.

So ideological labels really don't mean much in the new
practical world.

> "In an election as important as this, we must choose the candidate
> who has a proven record of bipartisanship and reforming government,
> and that's John McCain. We can't afford a president who lacks
> experience and judgment and has never crossed party lines to work for
> meaningful reform. Amid tough economic times and foreign policy

Obama's lack of history in bipartisan accords concerns me
but McCain's history of fervent support for deregulation
without understanding of the consequences, despite having
prior experience in the S&L disaster, concerns me much
more.

Then there's the judgments on the war and costs of the war.
John Wheaton
2008-09-20 05:35:15 UTC
Permalink
"Ed Jay" <***@aes-intl.com> wrote in message
news:***@4ax.com...
>>>
>>> You can try to spin this problem any way you want, use as many partisan
>>> hacks to back you up, and all the half-truths you can conjure up, but,
>>> the
>>> facts are clear: the vast majority of the blame is attributable to
>>> Republicans; namely Phil Gramm, John McCain, and George W. Bush.
>>
>>None of the business periodicals that I have read agree with you. Over
>>whelming they give the majority of credit to what Carter and Clinton did.
>>
> I'm sure, John, but you've made your sources of information very clear.

I have been posting clips from Investors Business Daily one of the most
respected business periodicals in the Country and I have been posting links
to their website.
I do find it amusing that when you send me an e-mail that states that John
McCain is a coward and a traitor, I am not to blame you, that you are merely
passing a story on. When I pass a story on, I am after Obama and I am
personally responsible for the story ! Oh well fairness and equity doesn't
seem to be your strong suit these days and that's a disappointment.
Congress Tries To Fix What It Broke
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Wednesday, September 17, 2008 4:20 PM
PT

Regulation: As the financial crisis spreads, denials on Capitol Hill grow
more shrill. Blame an aloof President Bush, greedy Wall Street, risky
capitalism - anybody but those in Congress who wrote the banking rules.

Such denials won't hold against the angry facts banging on their doors. The
only question is whether the guilty party can keep up the barricade until
Election Day.

A visibly annoyed House Speaker Nancy Pelosi rejected suggestions that
Democrats share blame for the meltdown. "No," she snapped at reporters who
dared ask.

Stick to our narrative, she scolded: The bursting of the housing bubble was
another story of market failure and deregulation.

"The American people are not protected from the risk-taking and the greed of
these financial institutions," she said, while calling for investigations of
the industry.

Only, the risk-taking was her idea - and the idea of all the other
Democrats, along with a handful of Republicans, who over the past 30 years
have demonized lenders as racist and passed regulation after regulation
pressuring them to make more loans to unqualified borrowers in the name of
diversity.

They were the ones who screamed - "REDLINING!" - and sent banks scurrying
for cover in low-income neighborhoods, where they have been forced to lower
long-held industry standards for judging creditworthiness to make the
subprime loans.

If they don't comply, they are threatened with stiff penalties under the
Community Reinvestment Act, or CRA, a law that forces banks to make home
loans to people with poor credit risks.

No fewer than four federal banking regulatory agencies are responsible for
enforcing the law. They subject lenders to racial litmus tests and issue
regular report cards, the industry's dreaded "CRA rating."

The more branches that lenders put in poor neighborhoods, and the more loans
they make there, the better their rating. Those lenders with low ratings can
not only be fined, but also blocked from mergers and other business
transactions needed to expand.

The regulation grew to monstrous proportions during the Clinton
administration, obsessed as it was with multiculturalism. Amendments to the
CRA in the mid-1990s dramatically raised the amount of home loans to
otherwise unqualified low-income borrowers.

The revisions also allowed for the first time the securitization of
CRA-regulated loans containing subprime mortgages. The changes came as
radical "housing rights" groups led by ACORN lobbied for such loans. ACORN
at the time was represented by a young public-interest lawyer in Chicago by
the name of Barack Obama.

HUD, in turn, pressured Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to purchase more subprime
mortgages, and Fannie and Freddie, in turn, donated to the campaigns of
leading Democrats like Barney Frank and Pelosi who throttled investigations
into fraud at the agencies.

Soon, investment banks such as Bear Stearns were aggressively hawking the
securities as "guaranteed." Wall Street's pitch was that MBSs were as safe
as Treasuries, but with a higher yield.

But they weren't safe. Everyone in the subprime business - from brokers to
lenders to banks to investment houses - absolved themselves of
responsibility for ensuring the high-risk loans were good.

The mortgage lenders didn't care, because they were going to sell the loans
to other banks. The banks didn't care, because they were going to repackage
the loans as MBSs. The investors and traders didn't care, because the MBSs
were backed by Fannie and Freddie and their implicit government guarantees.

In other words, nobody up and down the line - from the branch office on main
street to the high-rise on Wall Street - analyzed the risk of such
ill-advised loans. But why should they? Everybody was just doing what the
regulators in Washington wanted them to do.

So everybody won until everybody lost, including the minorities the
government originally mandated the banks to serve.

The original culprits in all this were the social engineers who compelled
banks to make the bad loans. The private sector has no business conducting
social experiments on behalf of government. Its business is making profit.
Period. So it did what it naturally does and turned the subprime social
mandate into a lucrative industry.

Of course, it was a Ponzi scheme, because they weren't allowed to play by
their rules. The government changed the rules for risk.

In order to put low-income minorities into home loans, they were ordered to
suspend lending standards that had served the banking industry well for
centuries. No one wants to talk about it, so they just scapegoat Wall
Street. Even John McCain has joined the Democrat chorus on this.

The FBI is now investigating 24 large mortgage lenders for alleged abuses.
But who will investigate the pols and the lobbyists and the community
agitators who made the bad decisions that ultimately forced businesses to
make their bad decisions?
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=306544845091102

> (Are you coming down before Halloween Swing/Hustle Thing? We really need
> to
> sit down and tip one, or two, or ten together.)


Frankly I don't know. Over the last few weeks I have been spending most of
my time organizing the Ed Putnam Cancer Fund Raiser. It will be all day
tomorrow with 7 instructors and over 100 dancers here on the Central Coast
taking care of one of out own..:0)
Ed Jay
2008-09-20 08:22:25 UTC
Permalink
John Wheaton scribed:

>
>"Ed Jay" <***@aes-intl.com> wrote in message
>news:***@4ax.com...
>>>>
>>>> You can try to spin this problem any way you want, use as many partisan
>>>> hacks to back you up, and all the half-truths you can conjure up, but,
>>>> the facts are clear: the vast majority of the blame is attributable to
>>>> Republicans; namely Phil Gramm, John McCain, and George W. Bush.
>>>
>>>None of the business periodicals that I have read agree with you. Over
>>>whelming they give the majority of credit to what Carter and Clinton did.
>>>
>> I'm sure, John, but you've made your sources of information very clear.
>
>I have been posting clips from Investors Business Daily one of the most
>respected business periodicals in the Country and I have been posting links
>to their website.

I invite anyone and everyone to view the cited "one of the most respected
business periodicals in the country," at <http://www.ibdeditorials.com>. It
is an opinion journal that is more than simply right-leaning and anti-Obama.
Today's cartoon of the day, the Editor's Pick," is titled, "Barack Hoover
Hussein Obama."

Front Page articles are titled:

"The Right Stuff...Subprime Crisis: President Bush's financial team is now
proving its mettle..."

" ...And The Wrong: Election '08: Barack Obama's quasi-presidential address
...offers little more than veiled pork-barrel programs."

"Surge Protector: War On Terror: Arguably the greatest American general
since Patton, David Petraeus,.."

I'm sorry, John, I'm more than happy to discuss facts, but I'm not willing
to debate partisan opinions. And, that is what you are posting as your
backup source...an extremely partisan and biased interpretation and opinion
journal. What you posted twists and bends the truth much too much. It's not
worth discussing, any more than discussing Pravda's views would be..

>I do find it amusing that when you send me an e-mail that states that John
>McCain is a coward and a traitor, I am not to blame you, that you are merely
>passing a story on.

Don't blame me for passing off information that, if one chooses to research,
supports the assertions contained in the email. Further, the article
provided valid links to original documents in an attempt to answer the
question, 'Is McCain a hero or a traitor?' Apparently, you read the
information and reached your conclusion.

>When I pass a story on, I am after Obama and I am
>personally responsible for the story!

What you posted was not a story, it was an opinion article written to give
the false impression by innuendo that Obama's integrity and subjectivity is
suspect. I passed on facts by private email. You publicly posted partisan
interpretation designed by its author to defame Obama.

>Oh well fairness and equity doesn't
>seem to be your strong suit these days and that's a disappointment.

Hear, hear! You're smart enough to know what information is factual and what
is partisan, and you chose to post partisan hackery as factual backup. I'm
sorry you're disappointed that I sent an email conveying facts, and you feel
it's appropriate to masquerade partisan opinion as fact. Humph! :-(

>Congress Tries To Fix What It Broke
>By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Wednesday, September 17, 2008 4:20 PM
>http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=306544845091102

Blah! The opinion and misinterpretation of a very right-leaning writer.
Partisan hackery.
>
>> (Are you coming down before Halloween Swing/Hustle Thing? We really need
>> to sit down and tip one, or two, or ten together.)
>
>Frankly I don't know. Over the last few weeks I have been spending most of
>my time organizing the Ed Putnam Cancer Fund Raiser...
>taking care of one of our own..:0)
>
That's very nice wonderful endeavor. Good luck to you all. Well, if not
before, at the Hyatt. They serve good drinks.

--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)

Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
Knowing the facts could save your life.
http://www.breastthermography.info
John Wheaton
2008-09-20 05:45:06 UTC
Permalink
"Ed Jay" <***@aes-intl.com> wrote in message
news:***@4ax.com...
>>
>>> Phil Gramm was Chairman of the Banking Committee and John McCain chaired
>>> the
>>> Commerce Committee when the laws were changed that ultimately allowed
>>> this
>>> mess to occur.

Dispelling The 'Deregulation' Myth
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Friday, September 19, 2008 4:20 PM PT

Politics: A dubious and dangerous idea seems to be gaining strength - that
government caused the financial crisis by giving capitalism free rein. If
anything, it hasn't done enough of that.

OK, we'll say it if no one else will: Thank heaven for Gramm-Leach-Bliley.
If you've been listening to the fulminations from Congress and the campaign
trail, you know that we're talking about the 1999 law that dismantled the
Depression-era barriers between commercial and investment banking.

Democrats largely supported it at the time, and one of their own, Bill
Clinton, signed it. Now they frame it as a Republican bill that helped send
the nation on the path to perdition.

AFL-CIO President John Sweeney said it's time to roll it back: "The system
of regulation of these integrated banks has failed, and it is clear that
much stronger firewalls are needed." Majority Leader Harry Reid - one of 90
senators who voted for the bill in its final version - took off after its
co-sponsor, Phil Gramm, who Reid said "was responsible for deregulation in
the financial services industries that paved the way for much of this crisis
to occur."

Maybe they know better, but they just can't resist kicking Gramm, who was
dumped from John McCain's campaign back in July after suggesting that
America had become "a nation of whiners." You don't scold voters in an
election year, and Democrats still seem to think they can score points from
Gramm's gaffe.

This is no way to start a serious policy debate. And to suggest that the
free-market principles embodied by Phil Gramm in his Senate career are at
the root of the current financial crisis is not only dubious, but also
dangerous. If people are convinced that capitalism is the problem, they'll
accept a regulatory regime that sharply pulls in its reins, shifting power
from business owners to union bosses such as Sweeney.

So it's time for some fact-based discussion of Gramm-Leach-Bliley and the
whole policy trend called "deregulation."

First, that bill didn't make regulation go away. It modernized the rules to
fit the realities of the financial markets. Washington doesn't always get
the rules right, but in this case it did.

Also, Gramm-Leach-Bliley didn't take down the firewalls between
deposit-based banking and investments. Banks can't play the stock market or
trade credit default swaps with your savings account. Investment and banking
operations run under one corporate roof, but otherwise stay separate.

So why did banks and investment houses get into so much trouble? It will
take a long and exhaustive post-mortem to answer that question fully, but
one point is already clear: They made mistakes that had nothing to do with
the 1999 law.

Commercial banks threw lending standards out the window in their rush to get
new business. Like S&Ls of the 1980s, they would have gone wild without
Gramm-Leach-Bliley. Washington, if anything, egged them on, but not because
of free-market dogma. Banks and mortgage brokers were pumping up the
homeownership numbers in America, and politicians were eager to take credit
for that.

Wall Street, meanwhile, became a victim of its own innovation. It created
new classes of derivative investments that spread - and, through leverage,
amplified - the risk from the subprime mortgages produced by the banks. A
new multitrillion-dollar market emerged almost overnight, lacking in
transparency and reliable price signals. With their asset values in doubt,
investment banks lurched toward insolvency.

If regulators failed here, it wasn't because of policies adopted years
before. It was more of the same story that has played itself out over and
over in modern finance: Innovation races ahead of the rules. Crises tend to
take almost everyone by surprise - including the major players as well as
the regulators.

Careful study in the aftermath can lead to smart policies that cushion the
blows of future shocks, but it doesn't prevent them entirely. Nor should it.
Capitalism needs some room for trial and error, bringing out new ideas and
testing them in adversity.

In this respect, Gramm-Leach-Bliley has turned out to be smart policy
indeed. By repealing the rule against banks owning investment firms, it has
led to at least two crucial mergers - JPMorgan Chase absorbing Bear Stearns
and Bank of America merging with Merrill Lynch. Morgan Stanley may be the
next investment house to find shelter in a well-capitalized commercial bank.

You can spot the theme here: By taking down an outmoded firewall, the law is
helping the financial industry cope with a once-in-a-lifetime crisis. Far
from being the cause, this instance of deregulation, or whatever you call
it, is part of the cure.
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=306716557967194
Ed Jay
2008-09-20 08:25:03 UTC
Permalink
John Wheaton scribed:

>
>"Ed Jay" <***@aes-intl.com> wrote in message
>news:***@4ax.com...
>>>
>>>> Phil Gramm was Chairman of the Banking Committee and John McCain chaired
>>>> the Commerce Committee when the laws were changed that ultimately allowed
>>>> this mess to occur.
>
>Dispelling The 'Deregulation' Myth
>By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Friday, September 19, 2008 4:20 PM PT
>
As I explained in a sister post, Investor's Business Daily is a partisan
opinion journal, and I won't debate partisan opinion. Facts only.

--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)

Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
Knowing the facts could save your life.
http://www.breastthermography.info
Ed Jay
2008-09-18 00:16:43 UTC
Permalink
John McCain on sub-prime mortgages...

Despite Claims Today He Warned of this Crisis, McCain in 2007 Said He Didn't
See This Crisis Coming.

"Two years ago, I warned that the oversight of Fannie and Freddie was
terrible, that we were facing a crisis because of it, or certainly serious
problems," Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., told CBS this morning. "The influence
that Fannie and Freddie had in the inside the Beltway, old boy network,
which led to this kind of corruption is unacceptable and I warned about it a
couple of years ago.” How does this claim of foresight square with this
interview that McCain gave to the Keene (NH) Sentinel, discussing the
subprime mortgage crisis, in December 2007?

<http://tinyurl.com/5ymfrb>

--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)

Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
Knowing the facts could save your life.
http://www.breastthermography.info
Ed Jay
2008-09-18 01:47:23 UTC
Permalink
I received this [timely] email today. It is long and infuriating; but, well
worth the read. (It came as one long glob of text, which I've attempted to
break into appropriate paragraphs. Sorry if it doesn't quite flow.)

Subject: CHICKENS COME HOME TO ROOST - FSMA

1999 Clinton, Republicans agree to deregulation of US financial system
By Martin McLaughlin - 1 November 1999

An agreement between the Clinton administration and congressional
Republicans, reached during all-night negotiations which concluded in
the early hours of October 22, sets the stage for passage of the most
sweeping banking deregulation bill in American history, lifting virtually
all restraints on the operation of the giant monopolies which dominate the
financial system.

The proposed Financial Services Modernization Act of 1999 would do away with
restrictions on the integration of banking, insurance and stock trading
imposed by the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933, one of the central pillars of
Roosevelt's New Deal.

Under the old law, banks, brokerages and insurance companies were
effectively barred from entering each others' industries, and investment
banking and commercial banking were separated. The certain result of repeal
of Glass-Steagall will be a wave of mergers surpassing even the colossal
combinations of the past several years. The Wall Street Journal wrote, "With
the stroke of the president's pen, investment firms like Merrill Lynch & Co.
and banks like Bank of AmericaCorp., are expected to be on the prowl for
acquisitions." The financial press predicted that the most likely mergers
would come from big banks acquiring insurance companies, with John Hancock,
Prudential and The Hartford all expected to be targeted.

Kenneth Guenther, executive vice president of Independent Community
Bankersof America, an association of small rural banks which opposed the
bill, warned, "This is going to begin a wave of major mergers and
acquisitions in the financial-services industry. We're moving to an
oligopolistic situation."

One such merger was already carried out well before the passage of the
legislation, the $72 billion deal which brought together Citibank, the
biggest New York bank, and Travelers Group Inc., the huge insurance and
financial services conglomerate, which owns Salomon Smith Barney, a major
brokerage. That merger was negotiated despite the fact that the merged
company, Citigroup, was in violation of the Glass-Steagall Act, because
billionaire Travelers boss Sanford Weill and Citibank CEO John Reed were
confident of bipartisan support for repeal of the 60-year-old law.

Campaign of influence-buying: They had good reason, to be sure. The banking,
insurance and brokerage industry lobbyists have combined their forces over
the last five years to mount the best-financed campaign of influence-buying
ever seen inWashington. In 1997 and 1998 alone, the three industries spent
over $300 million on the effort: $58 million in campaign contributions to
Democraticand Republican candidates, $87 million in "soft money"
contributions to the Democratic and Republican parties, and $163 million on
lobbying ofelected officials. The chairman of the Senate Banking Committee,
Texas Republican Phil Gramm,himself collected more than $1.5 million in cash
from the three industries during the last five years: $496,610 from the
insurance industry, $760,404 from the securities industry and $407,956 from
banks.

During the final hours of negotiations between the House-Senate conference
committee and White House and Treasury officials, dozens of well-heeled
lobbyists crowded the corridors outside the room where the final deal-making
was going on. Edward Yingling, chief lobbyist for the American Bankers
Association, told the New York Times, "If I had to guess, I would say it's
probably the most heavily lobbied, most expensive issue" in a generation.

While Democratic and Republican congressmen and industry lobbyists claimed
that deregulation would spark competition and improve services to consumers,
the same claims have proven bogus in the case of telecommunications,
airlines and other industries freed from federal regulations. Consumergroups
noted that since the passage of a 1994 banking deregulation bill which
permitted bank holding companies to operate in more than one state, both
checking fees and ATM fees have risen sharply.

Differing versions of financial services deregulation passed the House and
Senate earlier this year, and the conference committee was called to work
out a consensus bill and avert a White House veto.

The principal bone of contention in the last few days before the agreement
had nothing to do with the central thrust of the bill, on which there was
near- unanimous bipartisan support. The sticking point was the effort by
Gramm to gut the Community Reinvestment Act, a 1977 anti-redlining law which
requires that banks make a certain proportion of their loans in minority and
poor neighborhoods.

Gramm blocked passage of a similar deregulation bill last year over demands
to cripple the CRA, and bank lobbyists were in a panic, during the week
before the deal was made, that the dispute would once again prevent any bill
from being adopted.

Gramm and other extreme-right Republicans saw the opportunity to damage
their political opponents among minority businessmen and community groups,
who generally support the Democratic Party. Gramm succeeded in inserting two
provisions to weaken the CRA, one reducing the frequency of examinations for
CRA compliance to once every five years for smaller banks, the other
compelling public disclosure of loans made under the program. The latter
provision was particularly offensive to black and other minority business
and community groups, who have used the CRA provisions as a lever by
threatening to challenge mergers and other bank operations which require
government approval.

In most such cases, the banks have offered loans to businessmen or outright
grants to community groups in return fordropping their legal actions. These
petty- bourgeois elements have been able to posture as defenders of the
black or Hispanic community, while pocketing what are essentially payoffs
from finance capital and concealing from the public the details of this
relationship.

The banks and other financial institutions did not themselves oppose
continuation of the CRA, which they have treated as nothing more than a cost
of doing a highly profitable business in minority areas. Loans tied to the
CRA average a 20 percent rate of return. Financial industry lobbyists
complained that they were being caught in a crossfire between the
Republicans and Democrats which was unrelated to the main purpose of the
bill.

The Clinton White House threatened to veto the bill if CRA provisions were
substantially weakened, in response to heavy pressure from the Congressional
Black Caucus and the Reverend Jesse Jackson, whose Operation PUSH has made
extensive use of CRA in its campaigns to pressure corporations and banks for
more opportunities for black businessmen. But eventually the White House
caved in to Gramm, accepting his amendments so long as the program remained
formally in place.The White House similarly retreated on pledges that
consumer privacy would be protected in the legislation.

Consumer groups pointed to the potential for abuse of financial information
once giant conglomerates were created which would handle loans, investments
and insurance at the same time. For example: a bank could refuse to give a
30-year mortgage to a customer whose medical records, filed with the bank's
insurance subsidiary, revealed a fatal disease.

The final draft of the bill contains a consumer privacy protection clause,
but it is extremely weak, applying only to the transfer of information
outside of a financial conglomerate, not within it. Thus Citigroup will be
able to pass on financial information about its bank depositors to Travelers
Insurance, but not to an outside company like Prudential. Even that
limitation would be breached if there was a contractual relationship withthe
outside company, as in the case of a telemarketer which did work for
Citigroup and was given private information about Citigroup depositors to
aid in its telephone solicitations.

Threat to financial stability: The proposed deregulation will increase the
degree of monopolization in finance and worsen the position of consumers in
relation to creditors. Even more significant is its impact on the overall
stability of US and world capitalism. The bill ties the banking system and
the insurance industry even more directly to the volatile US stock market,
virtually guaranteeing that any significant plunge on Wall Street will have
an immediate and catastrophic impact throughout the US financial system.

The Glass-Steagall Act of 1933, which the deregulation bill would repeal,
was not adopted to protect consumers, although one of its most celebrated
provisions was the establishment of the Federal Deposit Insurance
Corporation, which guarantees bank deposits of up to $100,000. The law was
enacted during the first 100 days of the Roosevelt administration to rescue
a banking system which had collapsed, wiping out the life savings of
millions of working people, and threatening to bring the profit system to a
complete stand still. As a recent history of that era notes: "The more than
five thousand bank failures between the Crash and the New Deal's rescue
operation in March 1933 wiped out some $7 billion in depositors' money.

Accelerating foreclosures on defaulted home mortgages - 150,000 homeowners
lost their property in 1930, 200,000 in 1931, 250,000 in 1932 - stripped
millions of people of both shelter and life savings at a single stroke and
menaced the balance sheets of thousands of surviving banks" (David Kennedy,
Freedom from Fear, OxfordUniversity Press, 1999, pp. 162-63).

The separation of banking and the stock exchange was ordered in response to
revelations of the gross corruption and manipulation of the market by giant
banking houses, above all the House of Morgan, which organized huge
corporate mergers for its own profit and awarded preferential access to
share issues to favored politicians and businessmen.

Such insider trading played a major role in the speculative boom which
preceded the 1929 crash.Over the past 20 years the restrictions imposed by
Glass-Steagall have been gradually relaxed under pressure from the banks,
which sought more profitable outlets for their capital, especially in the
booming stockmarket, and which complained that foreign competitors suffered
no such limitations to their financial operations.

In 1990 the Federal Reserve Board first permitted a bank (J.P. Morgan) to
sell stock through a subsidiary, although stock market operations were
limited to 10 percent of the company's total revenue. In 1996 this ceiling
was lifted to 25 percent. Now it will be abolished.

The Wall Street Journal celebrated the agreement to end such restrictions
with an editorial declaring that the banks had been unfairly scapegoated for
the Great Depression. The headline of one Journal article detailing the
impact of the proposed law declared, "Finally, 1929 Begins to Fade."

This comment underscores the greatest irony in the banking deregulation
bill. Legislation first adopted to save American capitalism from the
consequences of the 1929 Wall Street Crash is being abolished just at the
point where the conditions are emerging for an even greater speculative
financial collapse. The enormous volatility in the stock exchange in recent
months has been accompanied by repeated warnings that stocks are grossly
overvalued, with some computer and Internet stocks selling at prices
100times earnings or even greater.

And there is a much more recent experience than 1929 to serve as a
cautionary tale. A financial deregulation bill was passed in the early 1980s
under the Reagan administration, lifting many restrictions on the activities
of savings and loan associations, which had previously been limited
primarily to the home-loan market. The result was an orgy of speculation,
profiteering and outright plundering of assets, culminating in collapse and
the biggest financial bailout in US history, costing the federal government
more than $500 billion. The repetition of such events in the much larger
banking and securities markets would be beyond the scope of any federal
bailout.

--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)

Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
Knowing the facts could save your life.
http://www.breastthermography.info
a***@uymail.com
2008-09-18 03:50:18 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 17, 9:47 pm, Ed Jay <***@aes-intl.com> wrote:
> I received this [timely] email today. It is long and infuriating; but, well
> worth the read. (It came as one long glob of text, which I've attempted to
> break into appropriate paragraphs. Sorry if it doesn't quite flow.)

If this article is (even mostly) true, then it is quite prophetic,
based on deja vu. So sad where greed has brought us.
Too bad the economists and historians in-the-know couldn't
change the tide a decade ago.

And the politicians sound totally out of touch. It's not
rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic, but playing
musical chairs on it.
a***@uymail.com
2008-09-18 04:05:17 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 17, 9:47 pm, Ed Jay <***@aes-intl.com> wrote:
> I received this [timely] email today. It is long and infuriating; but, well
> worth the read. (It came as one long glob of text, which I've attempted to
> break into appropriate paragraphs. Sorry if it doesn't quite flow.)
>
> Subject: CHICKENS COME HOME TO ROOST - FSMA

Ironic. The financial industry that practiced predatory
practices on the consumer seems to be cannibalizing
itself...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080918/ap_on_bi_ge/sec_short_selling
Rahul Dhesi
2008-09-18 07:17:11 UTC
Permalink
A succinct and unbiased summary of the reasons for the crisis and
possible solutions can be found here:

http://www.economist.com/finance/displayStory.cfm?source=hptextfeature&story_id=12209655
--
Rahul
http://rahul.rahul.net/
Ed Jay
2008-09-18 21:58:59 UTC
Permalink
Rahul Dhesi scribed:

>A succinct and unbiased summary of the reasons for the crisis and
>possible solutions can be found here:
>
> http://www.economist.com/finance/displayStory.cfm?source=hptextfeature&story_id=12209655

Thanks, Rahul. Interesting article.

I don't know (yet) if I'd call it an opinion piece, but I disagree that it
speaks directly to the origin of the problem. If I read it correctly (big
if), the author is saying that not paying attention and taking corrective
action during the expanding bubble is to blame. I think that has a lot to do
with why the bubble grew, but not the fundamental reasons why there was a
bubble in the first place.

I've forwarded the link to a close friend, who was CFO of a major aerospace
company for his take on the article. He's far right, so his input will be
interesting. ;-)

I'll be back with his further comments.

--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)

Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
Knowing the facts could save your life.
http://www.breastthermography.info
Rahul Dhesi
2008-09-18 22:36:34 UTC
Permalink
Ed Jay <***@aes-intl.com> writes:

>I don't know (yet) if I'd call it an opinion piece, but I disagree that it
>speaks directly to the origin of the problem. If I read it correctly (big
>if), the author is saying that not paying attention and taking corrective
>action during the expanding bubble is to blame. I think that has a lot to do
>with why the bubble grew, but not the fundamental reasons why there was a
>bubble in the first place.

Let me try to give a brief summary of the argument:

Unregulated markets work best when people have full knowledge of all
the risks. In the credit market, people don't, so the market should
be more regulated. But don't regulate everything in sight, just
regulate the total amount of credit so it doesn't greatly outpace real
growth. Allow small bubbles to form and then burst without government
intervention -- because these bursts are how the market balances
itself.

The current bubble is a very big one, and it happened because the
unregulated amount of credit grew too much. But this bubble has
already almost completely burst, and it's too late now to do
anything except just ride it out.
--
Rahul
http://rahul.rahul.net/
Ed Jay
2008-09-18 23:27:54 UTC
Permalink
Rahul Dhesi scribed:

>Ed Jay <***@aes-intl.com> writes:
>
>>I don't know (yet) if I'd call it an opinion piece, but I disagree that it
>>speaks directly to the origin of the problem. If I read it correctly (big
>>if), the author is saying that not paying attention and taking corrective
>>action during the expanding bubble is to blame. I think that has a lot to do
>>with why the bubble grew, but not the fundamental reasons why there was a
>>bubble in the first place.
>
>Let me try to give a brief summary of the argument:
>
> Unregulated markets work best when people have full knowledge of all
> the risks. In the credit market, people don't, so the market should
> be more regulated. But don't regulate everything in sight, just
> regulate the total amount of credit so it doesn't greatly outpace real
> growth. Allow small bubbles to form and then burst without government
> intervention -- because these bursts are how the market balances
> itself.
>
Yes, I certainly saw that in the article. I also saw 'we don't recognize
when we're in a bubble,' which I don't particularly embrace, especially when
it's a rapidly expanding bubble. But, if the author's assessment is correct,
small bubbles can easily grow into big bubbles. Does that occurrence not
defeat the author's thesis?

> The current bubble is a very big one, and it happened because the
> unregulated amount of credit grew too much.

Do you accept the possibility that such unregulated, rapid growth was
anticipated, if not planned by some, and allowed to happen to satisfy the
avarice of some?

>But this bubble has already almost completely burst, and it's too late now to do
> anything except just ride it out.

I would argue that it will continue to fizzle, except I see the central
banks today upped the ante to some $270+ billion. Hopefully, that will be
(very passive phrase) adequate to shore up other troubled institutions.

As an aside, I was close to the real estate bubble burst in Japan during the
mid- to late-90's. My company helped to bail out Japanese property owners
and real estate investors. The banks ran out of capital and credit, and the
manufacturing sector started to hurt, because it needed cash to operate and
the banks couldn't make loans. The Ministry of Finance was reticent to help
the banks, but finally relented and put up a huge amount of capital
(trillions) to save the banks. Instead of investing the money into the
Japanese economy, the banks invested in Euros. That was a primary reason
the Japanese companies began to consolidate into synergistic giants. The
bank execs are still in prison. :-)

--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)

Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
Knowing the facts could save your life.
http://www.breastthermography.info
Rahul Dhesi
2008-09-19 00:43:40 UTC
Permalink
Ed Jay <***@aes-intl.com> writes:

>> The current bubble is a very big one, and it happened because the
>> unregulated amount of credit grew too much.

>Do you accept the possibility that such unregulated, rapid growth was
>anticipated, if not planned by some, and allowed to happen to satisfy the
>avarice of some?

"Avarice" is just another name for "profit motive". Directors and
officers of a company are required by law to operate in the best
interests of the company, which translates into the best interests of the
shareholders in general, so avarice on behalf of the shareholders is
exactly what they are hired to practise. If they don't, they can be
subject to lawsuits from shareholders. And if the directors and officers
made a calculated judgment call that the government would bail them out,
then they did the absolutely correct thing, i.e., look out for the
interests of the shareholders. To the extent that shareholders do
suffer, it was part of the risk taken by all.

Maybe we need to change the law so directors and officers are not
duty-bound to put the company first and everybody else second. But right
now, they are.

Notice that even though the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac CEOs don't get
their goldern parachute payments, this is only because Congress passed a
last-minute law (Housing and Economic Recovery Act of 2008) specifically
enabling this. If these CEOS did in fact do anythign wrong, then why has
nobody has asked them to return any of their huge bonuses that they
earned in recent years? Because they earned those bonuses fair and
square -- by practising the avarice they were hired to practise. Now is
not a good time to be blaming them for doing what the law requires them
to do -- work in the best interests of the company.
--
Rahul
http://rahul.rahul.net/
a***@uymail.com
2008-09-19 05:45:20 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 18, 8:43 pm, ***@XReXXOTXXM.usenet.us.com (Rahul Dhesi)
wrote:

> "Avarice" is just another name for "profit motive". Directors and
> officers of a company are required by law to operate in the best
> interests of the company, which translates into the best interests of the
> shareholders in general, so avarice on behalf of the shareholders is
> exactly what they are hired to practise. If they don't, they can be
> subject to lawsuits from shareholders. And if the directors and officers
> made a calculated judgment call that the government would bail them out,
> then they did the absolutely correct thing, i.e., look out for the
> interests of the shareholders. To the extent that shareholders do
> suffer, it was part of the risk taken by all.
>
> Maybe we need to change the law so directors and officers are not
> duty-bound to put the company first and everybody else second. But right
> now, they are.

I read a book called Supercapitalism by Bob Reich some time
ago, and it talks about the dynamics that goes into the current
out-of-wack economy, including how consumers are unwittingly
responsible for a lot of the miseries that result. And indeed
the book supports the idea that company executives are not
responsible for social ills, but are only tasked with maximizing
profits for shareholders, even at the expense of society in
general. The book suggests that it is the _citizens_ that need
to band together to fix things and create a society they enjoy.
And it emphasizes that laws (that are enforced) are the only
vehicle that would work in creating a balanced playing field
that molds the behavior of companies toward social and
environmental good. Good reading.

As for companies maximizing profits, there are the lines of
morals, ethics, and legality. While the first two are only
guidelines, the third is a "must do." Clearly, many
companies have done illegal things to take us where we
are. When they investigated the dot-com disasters of 8+
years ago, they found lots of illegal activities, including
cooking of books (and the investigations really only
tapped the tip of the iceberg).
Ed Jay
2008-09-19 16:55:49 UTC
Permalink
Rahul Dhesi scribed:

>Ed Jay <***@aes-intl.com> writes:
>
>>> The current bubble is a very big one, and it happened because the
>>> unregulated amount of credit grew too much.
>
>>Do you accept the possibility that such unregulated, rapid growth was
>>anticipated, if not planned by some, and allowed to happen to satisfy the
>>avarice of some?
>
>"Avarice" is just another name for "profit motive".

Avarice, as I intended to employ it, is profit motive driven to excess. It
is extreme greed, and greed is an excessive drive to acquire more material
wealth than one needs or is entitled.

>Directors and
>officers of a company are required by law to operate in the best
>interests of the company, which translates into the best interests of the
>shareholders in general, so avarice on behalf of the shareholders is
>exactly what they are hired to practise.

That is not correct. Directors, by law, have a fiduciary responsibility
(trust) to the shareholders to assure that the officers of the company
perform their duties in the best interests of the corporation. It has
nothing whatsoever to do with greed or avarice. Directors are also obligated
under common law to conduct their task within ethical and moral bounds.

Do you think it is appropriate for directors of company to knowingly allow
the company to sell products known to harm or cause death to its customers,
because the corporation will reap greater profits by settling court cases
rather than selling a safe product? (Automobile and pharmaceutical
companies, as examples.).

How about the directors of mortgage banks who, driven by greed, made loans
that they knew the borrowers couldn't afford, and that resulted in millions
of people losing their homes and life savings, and taxpayers having to pay
for their folly?

Do you think the directors of the banks and mortgage companies were merely
fulfilling their fiduciary obligations to shareholders, and therefore
shouldn't be, or can't be held accountable?

> If they don't, they can be
>subject to lawsuits from shareholders. And if the directors and officers
>made a calculated judgment call that the government would bail them out,
>then they did the absolutely correct thing, i.e., look out for the
>interests of the shareholders.

I object to both your premise and your conclusion.

>To the extent that shareholders do suffer, it was part of the risk taken by all.

Really? Tell that to the shareholders of Enron, Lehmann, et al.
>
>Maybe we need to change the law so directors and officers are not
>duty-bound to put the company first and everybody else second. But right
>now, they are.

Once again, the directors have a fiduciary obligation to the shareholders to
assure that the corporation is run properly. They are not obligated to put
the company first and everybody second.
>
>Notice that even though the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac CEOs don't get
>their goldern parachute payments, this is only because Congress passed a
>last-minute law (Housing and Economic Recovery Act of 2008) specifically
>enabling this. If these CEOS did in fact do anythign wrong, then why has
>nobody has asked them to return any of their huge bonuses that they
>earned in recent years? Because they earned those bonuses fair and
>square -- by practising the avarice they were hired to practise. Now is
>not a good time to be blaming them for doing what the law requires them
>to do -- work in the best interests of the company.

The lawsuits haven't been filed yet. Rest assured that you will receive spam
asking if you were a shareholder, and do you want to join a class action
lawsuit against these guys.

--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)

Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
Knowing the facts could save your life.
http://www.breastthermography.info
Rahul Dhesi
2008-09-19 19:14:56 UTC
Permalink
Ed Jay <***@aes-intl.com> writes:

>Do you think it is appropriate for directors of company to knowingly allow
>the company to sell products known to harm or cause death to its customers,...
>
>How about the directors of mortgage banks who, driven by greed, made loans
>that they knew the borrowers couldn't afford, and that resulted in millions
>of people losing their homes and life savings, and taxpayers having to pay
>for their folly?

The law does not require the directors of a company to act in an
"appropriate" manner.

Take an extreme example, just to illustrate the point. A criminal
defense attorney is ethically bound to respect the confidentiality of
his client and do his best to get his client acquitted, even if he knows
that the client has killed a hundred innocent people in cold blood. In
lay terms, this is not ethical at all -- why would you try to get a
known killer off the hook, when we would all be safer if he were locked
up forever or executed? But by law, this is how things are supposed to
work. The defense attorney's duty to his client is far greater than his
duty to you and me to protect us from a known killer.

That was an extreme example, of course.

In a less extreme sense, an officer or director is supposed to look
after the interests of the company, even at the expense of anybody else.
The only limit is the limit imposed by law. And the law does not require
that a company make 100% safe products or offer 100% safe service. You
might recall the infamous Ford Pinto case, where the company did a
cost-effect analysis and build an exploding fuel tank. Ford did end up
paying the poor guy that was badly burnt. But nobody was charged with
any crime -- there was none.

As for selling mortgages to people who can't afford them -- I agree this
is a "terribly bad thing" and not one that I would do. Others obviously
disagreed, and presumably relied on the fact that nowhere in law do we
find any prohibition against "terribly bad things".

Every time I talk to any real estate agent, regardless of the state of
the market, they always tell me "this is a great time to buy" (if I
express an interest in buying) and "this is a great time to sell" (if I
express an interest in selling). They are obviously lying, but I don't
believe their lies rise to the level of a crime.

And remember, the people who bought those mortgages knew they were
buying houses they could not afford. Supposedly, they are adults who
know how much they are earning and how much they will owe for a house.
Buying real estate as an investment is not very different from buying
growth stocks -- the buyer takes a risk, and keeps the money if he
guessed right, and loses if he guessed wrong.

At least here in the SF Bay Area, renting is often cheaper than buying
in the long run, taking into accounts all factors. Buying real estate
in such a situation, just like buying growth stocks, makes sense only if
you guess that the value will go up fast enough. If you guess right,
you make a good amount of money.

A LOT OF PEOPLE GUESSED WRONG.

In the cases where they did not get what they paid for (e.g., the
mortgage rate was not properly disclosed, or there were hidden fees,
etc.), yes, something was probably done for which the perpretators ought
to be punished. But merely selling a mortgage to somebody who gambles by
buying an expensive house so he can sell it later at a higher price is
not, and ought not to be, a crime. A "terribly bad thing", yes, but not
a crime.
--
Rahul
http://rahul.rahul.net/
a***@uymail.com
2008-09-19 20:00:14 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 19, 3:14 pm, ***@XReXXOTXXM.usenet.us.com (Rahul Dhesi)
wrote:

> As for selling mortgages to people who can't afford them -- I agree this
> is a "terribly bad thing" and not one that I would do. Others obviously
> disagreed, and presumably relied on the fact that nowhere in law do we
> find any prohibition against "terribly bad things".

This of itself would be fine. But there were many illegal things
taking place, working in conjunction with loosened or
unenforced regulations. The way mortgages can now
be easily sold out of the originating bank takes away
accountability and incentive to stay honest.

On the regulations front, to provide safeguard, there used to
be minimal down payments on loans (15+ %), strict
requirements on documentation on ability to afford (3 years
income tax return), and no (ridiculous) teaser rates. There
were strict requirements on truth-in-lending, and the
mortgage acquisition process itself.

We all know about how the mortgage industry now
often works like the used-car dealers, with deceptive
and _illegal_ practices being the norm rather than
the exception. The average home buyer is simply not
as savvy as the scammers who make the sales.
Bob Wheatley
2008-09-19 22:40:51 UTC
Permalink
<***@uymail.com> wrote in message
news:1d75dd85-398b-4a06-822e-***@d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 19, 3:14 pm, ***@XReXXOTXXM.usenet.us.com (Rahul Dhesi)
> wrote:
>
>> As for selling mortgages to people who can't afford them -- I agree this
>> is a "terribly bad thing" and not one that I would do. Others obviously
>> disagreed, and presumably relied on the fact that nowhere in law do we
>> find any prohibition against "terribly bad things".
>
> This of itself would be fine. But there were many illegal things
> taking place, working in conjunction with loosened or
> unenforced regulations. The way mortgages can now
> be easily sold out of the originating bank takes away
> accountability and incentive to stay honest.
>


I got power back early this morning and have too much business and domestic
issues to take care of right now to get in the middle of this, but Avid's
comment above made me think of this article a friend has sent me while I was
off line.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/washbizblog/2008/04/regulator_to_dismiss_charges_a.html


Btw, the storm was a monster and while there's a lot to complain about.
There is far more to be thankful for.


Bob Wheatley
a***@uymail.com
2008-09-20 04:53:52 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 19, 6:40 pm, "Bob Wheatley" <***@directway.com>
wrote:

> http://voices.washingtonpost.com/washbizblog/2008/04/regulator_to_dis...

In some country, if the heads of departments did this
out of personal gain, without the sanction of the ruling
party, then they'd suffer the same fate as the head of
the FDA of that country, about a year ago.

These guys are lucky to live in the good 'ole USA.

> Btw, the storm was a monster and while there's a lot to complain about.
> There is far more to be thankful for.

Glad you are OK. Hope your relatives/friends/neighbors
got through without insurmontable hardship.
Bob Wheatley
2008-09-20 13:23:16 UTC
Permalink
<***@uymail.com> wrote in message
news:c9b2f9da-d5b7-4355-8c0b-***@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 19, 6:40 pm, "Bob Wheatley" <***@directway.com>
> wrote:
>
>> http://voices.washingtonpost.com/washbizblog/2008/04/regulator_to_dis...
>
> In some country, if the heads of departments did this
> out of personal gain, without the sanction of the ruling
> party, then they'd suffer the same fate as the head of
> the FDA of that country, about a year ago.
>
> These guys are lucky to live in the good 'ole USA.



Google "Franklin Raines" and "Jim Johnson" and their connections to Fannie
Mae anf Obama.
You can draw your own conclusions.


Bob Wheatley
Ed Jay
2008-09-20 14:57:17 UTC
Permalink
Bob Wheatley scribed:

>I got power back early this morning

Other than the inconvenience of having no power, I hope you were lucky
enough to not suffer any serious damage. The photos I've seen of Houston are
shocking. Galveston is beyond shocking.

>comment above made me think of this article a friend has sent me while I was
>off line.
>
>http://voices.washingtonpost.com/washbizblog/2008/04/regulator_to_dismiss_charges_a.html
>
What a joke on justice. According to the lawsuit against them, these guys
made $115 million in compensation, and their punishment was to lose their
stock options, some minor future income, and their insurance carriers had to
pay small fines.
>
>Btw, the storm was a monster and while there's a lot to complain about.
>There is far more to be thankful for.
>
Was this the first time you've experienced a hurricane?

--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)

Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
Knowing the facts could save your life.
http://www.breastthermography.info
Bob Wheatley
2008-09-20 15:27:39 UTC
Permalink
"Ed Jay" <***@aes-intl.com> wrote in message
news:***@4ax.com...
> Bob Wheatley scribed:
>
>>I got power back early this morning
>
> Other than the inconvenience of having no power, I hope you were lucky
> enough to not suffer any serious damage. The photos I've seen of Houston
> are
> shocking. Galveston is beyond shocking.
>


Google Port Bolivar and Gilchrist. Completely and utterly destroyed. Looks
like a nuclear bomb went off.

>>comment above made me think of this article a friend has sent me while I
>>was
>>off line.
>>
>>http://voices.washingtonpost.com/washbizblog/2008/04/regulator_to_dismiss_charges_a.html
>>
> What a joke on justice. According to the lawsuit against them, these guys
> made $115 million in compensation, and their punishment was to lose their
> stock options, some minor future income, and their insurance carriers had
> to
> pay small fines.
>>


Yeah, it's obscene. If you can rob someone of say $90 million and then only
have to pay a fine of say $30 million I'd take all that action I could get.



>>Btw, the storm was a monster and while there's a lot to complain about.
>>There is far more to be thankful for.
>>
> Was this the first time you've experienced a hurricane?
>


I've weathered several over the years but the worst was Alicia back in '83.
The eye actually went over us. It was surreal. The trees were being ripped
up and snapped from east to west, then things got really calm for about a
half hour. Then the trees that had survived the torment suddenly was faced
with dealing with winds from the opposite direction of west to east. The
hours of pounding rain and soil softening and relentless wind takes it's
toll on the trees. This of course is nothing compared to the storm surge
that the coastal areas have to deal with. Take a bowl of water and blow
across the surface and notice what happens to the water and it's reaction to
the wind. Now imagine a storm with winds over 110 MPH and 600 miles in
diameter. It's not pretty.



Bob Wheatley
Ed Jay
2008-09-20 15:48:59 UTC
Permalink
Bob Wheatley scribed:

>"Ed Jay" <***@aes-intl.com> wrote in message
>news:***@4ax.com...
>> Bob Wheatley scribed:
>>
>>>I got power back early this morning
>>
>> Other than the inconvenience of having no power, I hope you were lucky
>> enough to not suffer any serious damage. The photos I've seen of Houston
>> are shocking. Galveston is beyond shocking.
>>
>Google Port Bolivar and Gilchrist. Completely and utterly destroyed. Looks
>like a nuclear bomb went off.

I've seen the photos.
>
>> What a joke on justice. According to the lawsuit against them, these guys
>> made $115 million in compensation, and their punishment was to lose their
>> stock options, some minor future income, and their insurance carriers had
>> to pay small fines.
>>>
>Yeah, it's obscene. If you can rob someone of say $90 million and then only
>have to pay a fine of say $30 million I'd take all that action I could get.
>
They didn't even have to pay a fine. They lost nothing, except future paper
money. They didn't even have to pay for the peanut fines (peanuts in
comparison to the damage they were alleged to have caused). Their insurance
policies covered the fines. They were probably Officer & Director policies
paid for by the corporations.
>
>>>Btw, the storm was a monster and while there's a lot to complain about.
>>>There is far more to be thankful for.
>>>
>> Was this the first time you've experienced a hurricane?
>>
>I've weathered several over the years but the worst was Alicia back in '83.
>The eye actually went over us. It was surreal. The trees were being ripped
>up and snapped from east to west, then things got really calm for about a
>half hour. Then the trees that had survived the torment suddenly was faced
>with dealing with winds from the opposite direction of west to east. The
>hours of pounding rain and soil softening and relentless wind takes it's
>toll on the trees.

Bizarre, eh. The temporary calm that comes with the eye, after the constant
roar of the storm, is eery. In its own way, its very disturbing.

>This of course is nothing compared to the storm surge
>that the coastal areas have to deal with. Take a bowl of water and blow
>across the surface and notice what happens to the water and it's reaction to
>the wind. Now imagine a storm with winds over 110 MPH and 600 miles in
>diameter. It's not pretty.
>
I can't imagine it.

--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)

Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
Knowing the facts could save your life.
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memiki
2008-09-20 21:17:31 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 20, 8:27 am, "Bob Wheatley" <***@directway.com>
wrote:

> Btw, the storm was a monster and while there's a lot to complain about.
> There is far more to be thankful for.
>
> I've weathered several over the years but the worst was Alicia back in '83.
> The eye actually went over us. It was surreal. The trees were being ripped
> up and snapped from east to west, then things got really calm for about a
> half hour. Then the trees that had survived the torment suddenly was faced
> with dealing with winds from the opposite direction of west to east. The
> hours of pounding rain and soil softening and relentless wind takes it's
> toll on the trees. This of course is nothing compared to the storm surge
> that the coastal areas have to deal with. Take a bowl of water and blow
> across the surface and notice what happens to the water and it's reaction to
> the wind. Now imagine a storm with winds over 110 MPH and 600 miles in
> diameter. It's not pretty.
>
> Bob Wheatley

Hi Bob -- What a nightmare!!! It sounds like a siege by the Devil. I
am relieved to know you are O.K., but the resulting anxiety and
apprehension must still remain. Although I was not sure where you were
exactly located, I was able to pinpoint from information you supplied
about the storm and was right there with you on satellite when the eye
was above you with fingers crossed and a prayer. I hope your personal
and business properties did not sustain much damage.......

Love from Miki
Bob Wheatley
2008-09-21 00:18:10 UTC
Permalink
"memiki" <***@aol.com> wrote in message
news:cd412363-8c18-4ba2-b4f2-***@a8g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 20, 8:27 am, "Bob Wheatley" <***@directway.com>
wrote:

> Btw, the storm was a monster and while there's a lot to complain about.
> There is far more to be thankful for.
>
> I've weathered several over the years but the worst was Alicia back in
> '83.
> The eye actually went over us. It was surreal. The trees were being ripped
> up and snapped from east to west, then things got really calm for about a
> half hour. Then the trees that had survived the torment suddenly was faced
> with dealing with winds from the opposite direction of west to east. The
> hours of pounding rain and soil softening and relentless wind takes it's
> toll on the trees. This of course is nothing compared to the storm surge
> that the coastal areas have to deal with. Take a bowl of water and blow
> across the surface and notice what happens to the water and it's reaction
> to
> the wind. Now imagine a storm with winds over 110 MPH and 600 miles in
> diameter. It's not pretty.
>
> Bob Wheatley

>Hi Bob -- What a nightmare!!! It sounds like a siege by the Devil. I
am relieved to know you are O.K., but the resulting anxiety and
apprehension must still remain. Although I was not sure where you were
exactly located, I was able to pinpoint from information you supplied
about the storm and was right there with you on satellite when the eye
was above you with fingers crossed and a prayer. I hope your personal
and business properties did not sustain much damage.......>

>Love from Miki>


Hi Miki,
Thank you.
My offices sustained some minor (2 or 3 thousand dollars), but my home was
untouched other than a few days of yard cleaning.
All in all I am much luckier than most here.


Bob Wheatley
Ed Jay
2008-09-21 00:46:22 UTC
Permalink
Bob Wheatley scribed:

>"memiki" <***@aol.com> wrote in message
>>Hi Bob -- What a nightmare!!! It sounds like a siege by the Devil. I
>am relieved to know you are O.K., but the resulting anxiety and
>apprehension must still remain. Although I was not sure where you were
>exactly located, I was able to pinpoint from information you supplied
>about the storm and was right there with you on satellite when the eye
>was above you with fingers crossed and a prayer. I hope your personal
>and business properties did not sustain much damage.......>
>
>Hi Miki,
>Thank you.
>My offices sustained some minor (2 or 3 thousand dollars), but my home was
>untouched other than a few days of yard cleaning.

Get that office fixed. You're about to make a fortune.

I had an image of you sitting in a rocking chair, fishing from your front
porch. :-)

>All in all I am much luckier than most here.
>
Clean living pays off every time.

A TX friend sent me a pdf document with 24 shocking hurricane photos. It's a
fairly large file, but I've uploaded it for anyone who wants to see what the
fury of Momma Nature can do. <www.edbjay.com/ike.pdf>.

--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)

Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
Knowing the facts could save your life.
http://www.breastthermography.info
memiki
2008-09-21 01:06:17 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 20, 5:46 pm, Ed Jay <***@aes-intl.com> wrote:
>
>
> A TX friend sent me a pdf document with 24 shocking hurricane photos. It's a
> fairly large file, but I've uploaded it for anyone who wants to see what the
> fury of Momma Nature can do. <www.edbjay.com/ike.pdf>.
>
> --
> Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)
>
> Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
> Knowing the facts could save your life.http://www.breastthermography.info

WOW! -- Those are some pictures!........and I have never seen such a
bewildered alligator...

Miki
Ed Jay
2008-09-21 01:30:40 UTC
Permalink
memiki scribed:

>On Sep 20, 5:46 pm, Ed Jay <***@aes-intl.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> A TX friend sent me a pdf document with 24 shocking hurricane photos. It's a
>> fairly large file, but I've uploaded it for anyone who wants to see what the
>> fury of Momma Nature can do. <www.edbjay.com/ike.pdf>.
>>
>WOW! -- Those are some pictures!........and I have never seen such a
>bewildered alligator...
>
Alligator? I thought that was Tom Delay. :-))

--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)

Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
Knowing the facts could save your life.
http://www.breastthermography.info
Bob Wheatley
2008-09-21 01:29:20 UTC
Permalink
"Ed Jay" <***@aes-intl.com> wrote in message
news:***@4ax.com...
> Bob Wheatley scribed:
>
>>"memiki" <***@aol.com> wrote in message
>>>Hi Bob -- What a nightmare!!! It sounds like a siege by the Devil. I
>>am relieved to know you are O.K., but the resulting anxiety and
>>apprehension must still remain. Although I was not sure where you were
>>exactly located, I was able to pinpoint from information you supplied
>>about the storm and was right there with you on satellite when the eye
>>was above you with fingers crossed and a prayer. I hope your personal
>>and business properties did not sustain much damage.......>
>>
>>Hi Miki,
>>Thank you.
>>My offices sustained some minor (2 or 3 thousand dollars), but my home was
>>untouched other than a few days of yard cleaning.
>
> Get that office fixed. You're about to make a fortune.
>

It may indirectly drive up pricing or cause shortages of plumbers or other
craftsmen, but my company doesn't do the type of work that will be generated
by the storm.


> I had an image of you sitting in a rocking chair, fishing from your front
> porch. :-)
>


Or at least out the back of one of my boats.:>)


>>All in all I am much luckier than most here.
>>
> Clean living pays off every time.
>
> A TX friend sent me a pdf document with 24 shocking hurricane photos. It's
> a
> fairly large file, but I've uploaded it for anyone who wants to see what
> the
> fury of Momma Nature can do. <www.edbjay.com/ike.pdf>.
>


Thanks Ed. I've seen these photos being sent around as a slide show but the
quality of the ones you posted are much better.
I've saved the ones you posted on my hard drive.
The second photo in the series is from Port Bolivar. There are so many
stunning images from that area of the peninsula that are just hard to
fathom.



Bob Wheatley
Rahul Dhesi
2008-09-19 22:43:00 UTC
Permalink
***@uymail.com writes:

>On the regulations front, to provide safeguard, there used to
>be minimal down payments on loans (15+ %), strict
>requirements on documentation on ability to afford (3 years
>income tax return), and no (ridiculous) teaser rates. There
>were strict requirements on truth-in-lending, and the
>mortgage acquisition process itself.
...

So long as banks were on the hook, they sold only low-risk mortgages.
The Congress began encouraging the sale of high-risk mortgages, by
making interest-rate guarantees to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, both
corporations created by the government and designed to buy mortgages
from banks and essentially eliminate the risks taken by the banks, so
the banks could in turn sell even more mortgages. And by banks I am
referring to the banks that you and I deal with, i.e., your neighborhood
bank where you go to open a checking account or to buy a mortgage.

As a result, high-risk (euphemistically called "sub prime") mortgages
became immensely popular, and the rest is history.

The avarice/greed of corporations, great though it is, isn't any greater
now than it was 10 or 20 years ago. The difference is the government
policies that were put in place that encouraged the sale of high-risk
mortgages. As soon as these policies are fixed, we will return to the
old days of mostly low-risk mortgages.
--
Rahul
http://rahul.rahul.net/
Rahul Dhesi
2008-09-19 23:46:00 UTC
Permalink
And by the way, those who were taken by surprise, please take
a look at this figure published in 2006:

http://randolfe.typepad.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/housing_projection.jpg

Notice the near-doubling of house prices, and the accurate prediction of
the collapse, which had not yet occurred when this was published. The
people who were buying real estate in that boom with interest-only loans
were simply speculating, and planning to off-load their investment on
some other poor sucker when the time came. The ones who didn't get out
at the top are now in trouble. This is how risky markets work,
unfortunately. The ones who get out in time are happy; those who stay in
the market too long lose their shirts, and look for somebody else to
blame. (Not that there isn't enough blame to go around.)

The accompanying article is here:

http://randolfe.typepad.com/randolfe/2006/12/how_far_will_yo.html
--
Rahul
http://rahul.rahul.net/
Ed Jay
2008-09-20 20:27:27 UTC
Permalink
Rahul Dhesi scribed:

>Ed Jay <***@aes-intl.com> writes:
>
>>Do you think it is appropriate for directors of company to knowingly allow
>>the company to sell products known to harm or cause death to its customers,...
>>
>>How about the directors of mortgage banks who, driven by greed, made loans
>>that they knew the borrowers couldn't afford, and that resulted in millions
>>of people losing their homes and life savings, and taxpayers having to pay
>>for their folly?
>
>The law does not require the directors of a company to act in an
>"appropriate" manner.

I hate sounding like Bill Clinton, but I think it depends on one's
definition of 'appropriate.'
>
>Take an extreme example, just to illustrate the point. A criminal
>defense attorney is ethically bound to respect the confidentiality of
>his client and do his best to get his client acquitted, even if he knows
>that the client has killed a hundred innocent people in cold blood. In
>lay terms, this is not ethical at all -- why would you try to get a
>known killer off the hook, when we would all be safer if he were locked
>up forever or executed? But by law, this is how things are supposed to
>work. The defense attorney's duty to his client is far greater than his
>duty to you and me to protect us from a known killer.
>
>That was an extreme example, of course.

I'm not sure I understand its relevance to our discussion. Defense attorneys
are sworn to provide the best possible defense for their clients, regardless
of the charges levied against the client.
>
>In a less extreme sense, an officer or director is supposed to look
>after the interests of the company, even at the expense of anybody else.

We disagree on 'even at the expense of anybody else.'

>The only limit is the limit imposed by law. And the law does not require
>that a company make 100% safe products or offer 100% safe service. You
>might recall the infamous Ford Pinto case, where the company did a
>cost-effect analysis and build an exploding fuel tank. Ford did end up
>paying the poor guy that was badly burnt. But nobody was charged with
>any crime -- there was none.

What is a crime? It's more than simply breaking the law. Speeding, for
example, is breaking the law, but it's not a crime.

I was thinking of the Pinto case. The responsible Ford officers' and
directors' collective behavior could have, and should have been punished.
While their actions did not rise to the legal definition of a crime, it did
impair the companies reputation. Plaintiff's lawyers screwed up by not going
after them with a shareholders' class action suit. Alas...
>
>As for selling mortgages to people who can't afford them -- I agree this
>is a "terribly bad thing" and not one that I would do. Others obviously
>disagreed, and presumably relied on the fact that nowhere in law do we
>find any prohibition against "terribly bad things".

Yes, but if they convinced people to take out loans they knew the people
couldn't afford, don't you think they are guilty of deception, i.e.,
fraudulent and/or deceptive business practices? This may not be a 'crime,'
but I would think it could be classified as a tortious act.
>
>Every time I talk to any real estate agent, regardless of the state of
>the market, they always tell me "this is a great time to buy" (if I
>express an interest in buying) and "this is a great time to sell" (if I
>express an interest in selling). They are obviously lying, but I don't
>believe their lies rise to the level of a crime.

Funny coincidence.
>
>And remember, the people who bought those mortgages knew they were
>buying houses they could not afford. Supposedly, they are adults who
>know how much they are earning and how much they will owe for a house.
>Buying real estate as an investment is not very different from buying
>growth stocks -- the buyer takes a risk, and keeps the money if he
>guessed right, and loses if he guessed wrong.

Anyone who bought a house _knowing_ it wasn't affordable deserves what they
got.
>
>At least here in the SF Bay Area, renting is often cheaper than buying
>in the long run, taking into accounts all factors. Buying real estate
>in such a situation, just like buying growth stocks, makes sense only if
>you guess that the value will go up fast enough. If you guess right,
>you make a good amount of money.
>
>A LOT OF PEOPLE GUESSED WRONG.
>
>In the cases where they did not get what they paid for (e.g., the
>mortgage rate was not properly disclosed, or there were hidden fees,
>etc.), yes, something was probably done for which the perpretators ought
>to be punished. But merely selling a mortgage to somebody who gambles by
>buying an expensive house so he can sell it later at a higher price is
>not, and ought not to be, a crime. A "terribly bad thing", yes, but not
>a crime.

We agree on this. As I've already written, speculators and those who knew
they were doing wrong get zero sympathy with regards to their losses from
me.

--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)

Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
Knowing the facts could save your life.
http://www.breastthermography.info
a***@uymail.com
2008-09-19 15:44:34 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 18, 6:36 pm, ***@XReXXOTXXM.usenet.us.com (Rahul Dhesi)
wrote:

> Let me try to give a brief summary of the argument:

I'm confused by the most recent development, where
the government is going to pump in gobs of cash and
buy up all the bad debts. The market is exuberant.
A handful of mergers/buyouts are in the plans so that
the failing businesses are covered by the functioning
ones. It's as if nothing bad has ever happened and
business can continue as usual.

Isn't this just continuing on the failing course of
over-extending credit, now being assumed by the
tax payers who would eventually be holding the
bag? I've heard some claim that this is the fix
that gets to the root of the problem, but nothing's
changed. What am I missing, or are the regulators
and lawmakers, who got us into disaster in the
first place, continuing to use voodoo economics?
Ed Jay
2008-09-20 16:11:04 UTC
Permalink
Rahul Dhesi scribed:

>A succinct and unbiased summary of the reasons for the crisis and
>possible solutions can be found here:
>
> http://www.economist.com/finance/displayStory.cfm?source=hptextfeature&story_id=12209655

Here's an equally interesting article.

"How can a financial system that was thought to be so well capitalized just
18 months ago have proved to be so much more highly leveraged, and so much
more poorly capitalized, than we thought? How did this leverage so abruptly
and persistently translate into a lack of liquidity in the banking system
and falling credit asset values?"

<http://tinyurl.com/4qndxf>

--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)

Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
Knowing the facts could save your life.
http://www.breastthermography.info
Rahul Dhesi
2008-09-20 19:18:35 UTC
Permalink
Ed Jay <***@aes-intl.com> writes:

[ redirect to: ]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/19/AR2008091902952.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

The crucial point made in this is:

"The degradation of our credit process comes about when lenders stop
paying attention to borrowers' ability to repay out of cash flow and
make decisions solely on the basis of the expected value of the
collateral ...."

But Ed, this is an effect, not a cause. The cause was mostly government
policies that encouraged, even sometimes demanded, more high-risk loans.
Once you as lender have decided to make high-risk loans, of course you
will have to skimp on something, and one obvious place to do so is to
not require the borrower to have as much income as you previously
required. Another place, of course, is to require a smaller down
payment.

Once again, the fact that high-risk loans became popular was an effect,
not a cause. Of course, it's a chain, so each effect itself becomes a
cause of something else. The final effect is the collapse of the credit
market.

The original cause was a big change in government policies. When looking
for why we got a certain result, look for what changed.

Corporate greed didn't change.

People's desire to invest in growth assets and to have a nice place to
live in didn't change.

What changed was that the government decided that more high-risk
mortgages should be sold. Fannie May and Freddie Mac assumed the
risk -- but they were protected by the government, so in effect the
taxpayers assumed the risk. And everybody grabbed the opportunity and
tried to make a quick buck. And this "everybody" includes not only the
banks and investment funds, but the house buyers too. Don't weep for the
house buyers -- they were in it to make a fast buck just as much as the
CEOs and boards of directors and their shareholders were.

Well, OK, a small fraction of the house buyers did in fact get exploited
by their real estate and mortgage brokers. The majority of them were
simply flipping houses and mistimed the flip.

IF YOU GIVE THEM AN INCH, THEY WILL TAKE A MILE.

Goverment policies gave them -- the investment banks and the house
buyers -- the proverbial inch, and they took it and ran with it. Look at
the chart from 2006 that I posted a link to -- you can see that steep
uphill mile all the way to the brink of the collapse.
--
Rahul
http://rahul.rahul.net/
Ed Jay
2008-09-20 20:03:53 UTC
Permalink
Rahul Dhesi scribed:

>Ed Jay <***@aes-intl.com> writes:
>
>[ redirect to: ]
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/19/AR2008091902952.html?hpid=opinionsbox1
>
>The crucial point made in this is:
>
> "The degradation of our credit process comes about when lenders stop
> paying attention to borrowers' ability to repay out of cash flow and
> make decisions solely on the basis of the expected value of the
> collateral ...."
>
>But Ed, this is an effect, not a cause.

No argument from me, Rahul. I agree.

I posted the article, as I think it goes hand-in-hand with the article you
posted a few days ago pertaining to bubble formation, bubble expansion, and
oversight.

>The cause was mostly government
>policies that encouraged, even sometimes demanded, more high-risk loans.

I agree.

>Once you as lender have decided to make high-risk loans, of course you
>will have to skimp on something, and one obvious place to do so is to
>not require the borrower to have as much income as you previously
>required. Another place, of course, is to require a smaller down
>payment.
>
>Once again, the fact that high-risk loans became popular was an effect,
>not a cause. Of course, it's a chain, so each effect itself becomes a
>cause of something else. The final effect is the collapse of the credit
>market.
>
>The original cause was a big change in government policies. When looking
>for why we got a certain result, look for what changed.

I fully agree. Did I write something that suggested otherwise? I hope not,
as I've been harping on the changes in the law back in 1999 as the root
cause of the problem.
>
>Corporate greed didn't change.

I didn't say that corporate greed changed. I argued that corporate greed
(avarice) played an important roll in the process. I also suggested that it
possibly, if not likely, that avarice on the part of 'some' that led to the
changes in the laws.

I have this funny thought that Bush's announcement that the Feds would look
the other way when it came to enforcing the Predatory Lending Law, Bush's
2004 campaign in which he repeatedly pushed the benefits of an 'ownership
society,' and Bush's attempts to privatize Social Security are all somewhat
correlated with the current problem.
>
>People's desire to invest in growth assets and to have a nice place to
>live in didn't change.

I agree.
>
>What changed was that the government decided that more high-risk
>mortgages should be sold. Fannie May and Freddie Mac assumed the
>risk -- but they were protected by the government, so in effect the
>taxpayers assumed the risk. And everybody grabbed the opportunity and
>tried to make a quick buck. And this "everybody" includes not only the
>banks and investment funds, but the house buyers too. Don't weep for the
>house buyers -- they were in it to make a fast buck just as much as the
>CEOs and boards of directors and their shareholders were.
>
>Well, OK, a small fraction of the house buyers did in fact get exploited
>by their real estate and mortgage brokers. The majority of them were
>simply flipping houses and mistimed the flip.

I don't know how large or small the fraction of innocent home buyers was. Is
there information available to assist quantifying the statistic?

As I posted a couple of days ago, I have no sympathy for anyone who tried,
successfully or unsuccessfully, to profit from the availability of
[temporarily] low-cost financing.
>
>IF YOU GIVE THEM AN INCH, THEY WILL TAKE A MILE.

No question. It's human nature.
>
>Goverment policies gave them -- the investment banks and the house
>buyers -- the proverbial inch, and they took it and ran with it. Look at
>the chart from 2006 that I posted a link to -- you can see that steep
>uphill mile all the way to the brink of the collapse.

I don't think that you and I have disagreed on anything, except perhaps the
roll of corporate directors in the corporate scheme. We certainly agree that
the change in regulations and deregulating the financial industry are the
root cause of the problem. I think we also agree that subsequent actions,
and not basic effects, exacerbated the situation.

My only argument with John Wheaton regards who was responsible for changes
in which laws and the motivations that drove the changes. There's no
question in my mind that serial changes in the laws, beginning with
'charitable' reasons and later morphing into not-so-charitable reasons are
the fundamental causes.

I'm troubled that one of those responsible for changing the laws that helped
create the current economic problems is preaching the same action for health
care reform. From the September/October 2008 issue of "Contingencies," The
official organ of the American Academy of Actuaries:

"Opening up the health insurance market to more vigorous nationwide
competition, as we have done over the last decade in banking, would provide
more choices of innovative products less burdened by the worst excesses of
state-based regulation." -- John McCain

"When will they ever learn?"

--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)

Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
Knowing the facts could save your life.
http://www.breastthermography.info
Rahul Dhesi
2008-09-20 20:18:50 UTC
Permalink
Ed Jay <***@aes-intl.com> writes:

>>But Ed, this is an effect, not a cause.

>No argument from me, Rahul. I agree.

I think we agree about almost everything. Maybe even about corporate
avarice, although I firmly believe that the USA would not have its
current high standard of living without relatively unregulated corporate
avarice.

However:

>"Opening up the health insurance market to more vigorous nationwide
>competition, as we have done over the last decade in banking, would
>provide more choices of innovative products less burdened by the worst
>excesses of state-based regulation." -- John McCain

>"When will they ever learn?"

As a self-employed person, I estimate that the cost of any given level
of health insurance for someone like me in California would be nearly
halved if we could buy in a national market. So here I think you and I
completely disagree.
--
Rahul
http://rahul.rahul.net/
Ed Jay
2008-09-20 21:12:01 UTC
Permalink
Rahul Dhesi scribed:

>Ed Jay <***@aes-intl.com> writes:
>
>>>But Ed, this is an effect, not a cause.
>
>>No argument from me, Rahul. I agree.
>
>I think we agree about almost everything. Maybe even about corporate
>avarice, although I firmly believe that the USA would not have its
>current high standard of living without relatively unregulated corporate
>avarice.
>
>However:
>
>>"Opening up the health insurance market to more vigorous nationwide
>>competition, as we have done over the last decade in banking, would
>>provide more choices of innovative products less burdened by the worst
>>excesses of state-based regulation." -- John McCain
>
>>"When will they ever learn?"
>
>As a self-employed person, I estimate that the cost of any given level
>of health insurance for someone like me in California would be nearly
>halved if we could buy in a national market. So here I think you and I
>completely disagree.

I've been fundamentally self-employed throughout all of my non-scientist
career, so I know and feel your pain. I don't think we disagree on the issue
you bring up. I think we agree that if the situation is [mis]handled in the
same fashion as the banking industry was, monumental problems will arise.
What I took from McCain's statement, above, is that he's promoting
deregulating the health insurance industry in the same way he fought to
change the financial industry.

My number one priority is health care reform, but my interest is not
primarily reforming the health insurance issues, although I appreciate the
importance of that issue. My interest lies in eliminating the unbound
capitalism that drives the sub-standard health care services we receive.


--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)

Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
Knowing the facts could save your life.
http://www.breastthermography.info
Bob Ford
2008-09-20 20:35:22 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 20 Sep 2008 13:03:53 -0700, Ed Jay <***@aes-intl.com> wrote:

>Rahul Dhesi scribed:
>
>>Ed Jay <***@aes-intl.com> writes:
>>
>>[ redirect to: ]
>>
>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/19/AR2008091902952.html?hpid=opinionsbox1
>>
>>The crucial point made in this is:
>>
>> "The degradation of our credit process comes about when lenders stop
>> paying attention to borrowers' ability to repay out of cash flow and
>> make decisions solely on the basis of the expected value of the
>> collateral ...."
>>
>>But Ed, this is an effect, not a cause.
>
>No argument from me, Rahul. I agree.
>
>I posted the article, as I think it goes hand-in-hand with the article you
>posted a few days ago pertaining to bubble formation, bubble expansion, and
>oversight.
>
>>The cause was mostly government
>>policies that encouraged, even sometimes demanded, more high-risk loans.
>
>I agree.
>
>>Once you as lender have decided to make high-risk loans, of course you
>>will have to skimp on something, and one obvious place to do so is to
>>not require the borrower to have as much income as you previously
>>required. Another place, of course, is to require a smaller down
>>payment.
>>
>>Once again, the fact that high-risk loans became popular was an effect,
>>not a cause. Of course, it's a chain, so each effect itself becomes a
>>cause of something else. The final effect is the collapse of the credit
>>market.
>>
>>The original cause was a big change in government policies. When looking
>>for why we got a certain result, look for what changed.
>
>I fully agree. Did I write something that suggested otherwise? I hope not,
>as I've been harping on the changes in the law back in 1999 as the root
>cause of the problem.
>>
>>Corporate greed didn't change.
>
>I didn't say that corporate greed changed. I argued that corporate greed
>(avarice) played an important roll in the process. I also suggested that it
>possibly, if not likely, that avarice on the part of 'some' that led to the
>changes in the laws.
>
>I have this funny thought that Bush's announcement that the Feds would look
>the other way when it came to enforcing the Predatory Lending Law, Bush's
>2004 campaign in which he repeatedly pushed the benefits of an 'ownership
>society,' and Bush's attempts to privatize Social Security are all somewhat
>correlated with the current problem.
>>
>>People's desire to invest in growth assets and to have a nice place to
>>live in didn't change.
>
>I agree.
>>
>>What changed was that the government decided that more high-risk
>>mortgages should be sold. Fannie May and Freddie Mac assumed the
>>risk -- but they were protected by the government, so in effect the
>>taxpayers assumed the risk. And everybody grabbed the opportunity and
>>tried to make a quick buck. And this "everybody" includes not only the
>>banks and investment funds, but the house buyers too. Don't weep for the
>>house buyers -- they were in it to make a fast buck just as much as the
>>CEOs and boards of directors and their shareholders were.
>>
>>Well, OK, a small fraction of the house buyers did in fact get exploited
>>by their real estate and mortgage brokers. The majority of them were
>>simply flipping houses and mistimed the flip.
>
>I don't know how large or small the fraction of innocent home buyers was. Is
>there information available to assist quantifying the statistic?

I have stayed out of this discussion until now but I have a few
comments of my own to add.

I suppose there is something to be gained by finding whose doorstep to
lay the blame upon but so what.....it doesn't change anything about
the situation now. The whole discussion as to who is to blame does
nothing to fix the problem. Unfortunately I don't see any solution and
my personal opinion is this will get much worse before it gets better!

I would likewise be interested in knowing how many innocent people got
dragged into this. Everyone who, like us has bought their homes with
real qualified loans, real down payments etc. is now having to deal
with most or in some cases all of our equity being destroyed.

Worse yet are the Seniors like us who had planned retirement and are
now facing having to sell our homes no matter what the R.E. market is
doing. Those not in that situation and who can wait this out for 4 or
5 years can hopefully recover somewhat from this mess.
Not the case with us:-(
>
>As I posted a couple of days ago, I have no sympathy for anyone who tried,
>successfully or unsuccessfully, to profit from the availability of
>[temporarily] low-cost financing.

I have no sympathy for any of the lenders or many of the people who
have lost their houses to foreclosure. The lenders making these type
of loans should absorb their own losses and the ones who jumped into
this on those liar loans, no down payment, teaser rates, ARM loans
etc. have no one to blame but themselves. I also don't buy the
argument that many of them didn't know what they were getting into.
Buying a home and signing a loan agreement for that much money is
pretty serious business and if you don't understand all the
ramifications of what you are signing you damn well should take it to
your legal counsel and have them explain it to you.

>>
>>IF YOU GIVE THEM AN INCH, THEY WILL TAKE A MILE.
>
>No question. It's human nature.
>>
>>Goverment policies gave them -- the investment banks and the house
>>buyers -- the proverbial inch, and they took it and ran with it. Look at
>>the chart from 2006 that I posted a link to -- you can see that steep
>>uphill mile all the way to the brink of the collapse.
>
>I don't think that you and I have disagreed on anything, except perhaps the
>roll of corporate directors in the corporate scheme. We certainly agree that
>the change in regulations and deregulating the financial industry are the
>root cause of the problem. I think we also agree that subsequent actions,
>and not basic effects, exacerbated the situation.
>
>My only argument with John Wheaton regards who was responsible for changes
>in which laws and the motivations that drove the changes. There's no
>question in my mind that serial changes in the laws, beginning with
>'charitable' reasons and later morphing into not-so-charitable reasons are
>the fundamental causes.
>
>I'm troubled that one of those responsible for changing the laws that helped
>create the current economic problems is preaching the same action for health
>care reform. From the September/October 2008 issue of "Contingencies," The
>official organ of the American Academy of Actuaries:
>
>"Opening up the health insurance market to more vigorous nationwide
>competition, as we have done over the last decade in banking, would provide
>more choices of innovative products less burdened by the worst excesses of
>state-based regulation." -- John McCain
>
>"When will they ever learn?"
Bob Ford
Images In Motion
www.imagesinmotion.com
Ed Jay
2008-09-20 21:23:44 UTC
Permalink
Bob Ford scribed:

>I have stayed out of this discussion until now but I have a few
>comments of my own to add.
>
I was wondering when you'd join. :-)

>I suppose there is something to be gained by finding whose doorstep to
>lay the blame upon but so what.....it doesn't change anything about
>the situation now. The whole discussion as to who is to blame does
>nothing to fix the problem.

What if the same people who are to blame for the current debacle are allowed
to call the shots in the future? I think it's important to identify that
possibility, and strive to avoid a replay.

>Unfortunately I don't see any solution and
>my personal opinion is this will get much worse before it gets better!

I see where the CEO of BofA predicts that half of today's banks will be gone
in five years. He does, however, think that's good, as it will result in a
stronger, more resilient financial industry.
>
>I would likewise be interested in knowing how many innocent people got
>dragged into this. Everyone who, like us has bought their homes with
>real qualified loans, real down payments etc. is now having to deal
>with most or in some cases all of our equity being destroyed.
>
>Worse yet are the Seniors like us who had planned retirement and are
>now facing having to sell our homes no matter what the R.E. market is
>doing. Those not in that situation and who can wait this out for 4 or
>5 years can hopefully recover somewhat from this mess.
>Not the case with us:-(

Probably the vast majority of people who bought high and have now lost their
equity aren't seniors and will be able to weather the storm.

When I worked with the Japanese, when the real estate prices dropped, people
lost their homes to foreclosure, because by not maintaining a specified
debt-to-equity ratio, they were in technical default of their mortgages. I
hope that isn't the case here.

Imagine the outcome had the Social Security system been privatized!
>>
>>As I posted a couple of days ago, I have no sympathy for anyone who tried,
>>successfully or unsuccessfully, to profit from the availability of
>>[temporarily] low-cost financing.
>
>I have no sympathy for any of the lenders or many of the people who
>have lost their houses to foreclosure. The lenders making these type
>of loans should absorb their own losses and the ones who jumped into
>this on those liar loans, no down payment, teaser rates, ARM loans
>etc. have no one to blame but themselves. I also don't buy the
>argument that many of them didn't know what they were getting into.
>Buying a home and signing a loan agreement for that much money is
>pretty serious business and if you don't understand all the
>ramifications of what you are signing you damn well should take it to
>your legal counsel and have them explain it to you.
>
Arguable, but we differ only in the treatment of those who were tricked.

--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)

Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
Knowing the facts could save your life.
http://www.breastthermography.info
Bob Ford
2008-09-20 22:23:56 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 20 Sep 2008 14:23:44 -0700, Ed Jay <***@aes-intl.com> wrote:

>Bob Ford scribed:
>
>>I have stayed out of this discussion until now but I have a few
>>comments of my own to add.
>>
>I was wondering when you'd join. :-)
>
>>I suppose there is something to be gained by finding whose doorstep to
>>lay the blame upon but so what.....it doesn't change anything about
>>the situation now. The whole discussion as to who is to blame does
>>nothing to fix the problem.
>
>What if the same people who are to blame for the current debacle are allowed
>to call the shots in the future? I think it's important to identify that
>possibility, and strive to avoid a replay.
>
>>Unfortunately I don't see any solution and
>>my personal opinion is this will get much worse before it gets better!
>
>I see where the CEO of BofA predicts that half of today's banks will be gone
>in five years. He does, however, think that's good, as it will result in a
>stronger, more resilient financial industry.
>>
>>I would likewise be interested in knowing how many innocent people got
>>dragged into this. Everyone who, like us has bought their homes with
>>real qualified loans, real down payments etc. is now having to deal
>>with most or in some cases all of our equity being destroyed.
>>
>>Worse yet are the Seniors like us who had planned retirement and are
>>now facing having to sell our homes no matter what the R.E. market is
>>doing. Those not in that situation and who can wait this out for 4 or
>>5 years can hopefully recover somewhat from this mess.
>>Not the case with us:-(
>
>Probably the vast majority of people who bought high and have now lost their
>equity aren't seniors and will be able to weather the storm.
>
>When I worked with the Japanese, when the real estate prices dropped, people
>lost their homes to foreclosure, because by not maintaining a specified
>debt-to-equity ratio, they were in technical default of their mortgages. I
>hope that isn't the case here.

Nope, fortunately we still have equity. Just not what we had planned
on. No. Cal Brenwood has been one of the hardest hit because of the
huge amount of over building this town has allowed. I have neighbors
who now have zero equity and 2 or 3 that I personally know who owe
$200,000 plus on their houses more than current market value.
You know that old saying about better than being poked in the eye with
a sharp stick.......I will try to apply that to my thinking ;-^)
>
>Imagine the outcome had the Social Security system been privatized!
>>>
>>>As I posted a couple of days ago, I have no sympathy for anyone who tried,
>>>successfully or unsuccessfully, to profit from the availability of
>>>[temporarily] low-cost financing.
>>
>>I have no sympathy for any of the lenders or many of the people who
>>have lost their houses to foreclosure. The lenders making these type
>>of loans should absorb their own losses and the ones who jumped into
>>this on those liar loans, no down payment, teaser rates, ARM loans
>>etc. have no one to blame but themselves. I also don't buy the
>>argument that many of them didn't know what they were getting into.
>>Buying a home and signing a loan agreement for that much money is
>>pretty serious business and if you don't understand all the
>>ramifications of what you are signing you damn well should take it to
>>your legal counsel and have them explain it to you.
>>
>Arguable, but we differ only in the treatment of those who were tricked.

Those who were tricked have a case to plea.
For the unscrupulous lenders and greedy people who like a current TV
commercial say "I want it all" got what they had coming. They only
lost homes they should never have had to begin with.

If the govt. wants to bail someone out, how's about starting with
those of us who had nothing to do with this mess ;-^)
Bob Ford
Images In Motion
www.imagesinmotion.com
Ed Jay
2008-09-21 01:15:16 UTC
Permalink
Bob Ford scribed:

>If the govt. wants to bail someone out, how's about starting with
>those of us who had nothing to do with this mess ;-^)
>
Remember - one of three great lies is 'I'm from the government, and I'm here
to help you.' :-)

--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)

Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
Knowing the facts could save your life.
http://www.breastthermography.info
Bob Ford
2008-09-21 02:07:48 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 20 Sep 2008 18:15:16 -0700, Ed Jay <***@aes-intl.com> wrote:

>Bob Ford scribed:
>
>>If the govt. wants to bail someone out, how's about starting with
>>those of us who had nothing to do with this mess ;-^)
>>
>Remember - one of three great lies is 'I'm from the government, and I'm here
>to help you.' :-)

Does the 2nd one start with "I promise Honey"?;-^}
Bob Ford
Images In Motion
www.imagesinmotion.com
Ed Jay
2008-09-21 02:41:03 UTC
Permalink
Bob Ford scribed:

>On Sat, 20 Sep 2008 18:15:16 -0700, Ed Jay <***@aes-intl.com> wrote:
>
>>Bob Ford scribed:
>>
>>>If the govt. wants to bail someone out, how's about starting with
>>>those of us who had nothing to do with this mess ;-^)
>>>
>>Remember - one of three great lies is 'I'm from the government, and I'm here
>>to help you.' :-)
>
>Does the 2nd one start with "I promise Honey"?;-^}
>
That's the first one. :-))))))))))

--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to reply by email)

Win the War Against Breast Cancer.
Knowing the facts could save your life.
http://www.breastthermography.info
a***@uymail.com
2008-09-18 03:35:37 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 17, 12:31 pm, Ed Jay <***@aes-intl.com> wrote:
> Ed Jay scribed:

Test
a***@uymail.com
2008-09-18 03:40:33 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 17, 12:31 pm, Ed Jay <***@aes-intl.com> wrote:
> Ed Jay scribed:

> Did you want to start a political thread discussing the merits of the two
> candidates? I don't think we do, but I'm game if you want to play.

Test
a***@uymail.com
2008-09-18 03:42:21 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 17, 12:31 pm, Ed Jay <***@aes-intl.com> wrote:
> Ed Jay scribed:

> Did you want to start a political thread discussing the merits of the two
> candidates? I don't think we do, but I'm game if you want to play.


Oh, oh, can I be mediator? I'm just being a wise a**, as indeed
this is a national tragedy that needs some serious remedy.

Actually, I'd like to hear about realistic and substantial ideas
those of you who are better read than I might be able to
offer. No finger pointing, but real steps to improve the future.

Unfortunately, the root of all evil is money, and systems
in place tend to perpetuate corruption. For instance, if
some government watchdog was instituted to monitor
and control some reformed practice, over time the watchdog
group would inevitably take on a life of its own, becoming
a bureaucractic nightmare sucking up tax dollars, since
the insiders would naturally do empire building and justify
its continued existence. The same kind of scenario goes
for subsidies and earmarks.

Here's a different viewpoint, against bailouts...

http://blogs.moneycentral.msn.com/topstocks/archive/2008/09/16/the-fed-is-not-our-sugardaddy.aspx
a***@uymail.com
2008-09-09 12:08:43 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 9, 4:30 am, ***@aol.com wrote:

> Reminds me of folksinger Tom Paxton's song about another bailout, "I
> Am Changing My Name To Chrysler:

The Chrysler bail-out was miniscule compared to what's
happening now. One single company for some $2 billion
(I believe), which equals, say, $20B now. The current
melt-down of the mortgage industry, and the related
financial institutions, plus the ailing auto, airline, etc.,
industries are apt to cost some $1 trillion. Not to mention
the true cost of the wars, including the lifetime medical
costs of the casualties.

The widespread existence of fraud and corruption wasn't
there with the Chrysler bail-out, but was in the S&L
bail-out of decades ago.

These bail-outs without strings amount to giving the
alcoholic who's reached toxic shock even more alcohol,
rather than forcing him/her to sober up. The stock
market should have stayed level or retreated if strings
were attached, reflecting the true reality of the mess.
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